A Conversation About Communication

20:42:19 <Julieclipse> I'm not exactly a *fan* of Lilly, although he's certainly an interesting character... I resent what he did to the field even more than I resent what Noam Chomsky did. <sigh> The last thing I want is for anyone to associate me with him. 20:42:20 * Enigma grins at Julieclipse. Baby! 20:42:21 <Enigma> Hey, I got a social disease! Baby! 20:42:35 * Julieclipse grins at Enigma 20:42:54 * Carrie perks up at Noam Chomsky... 20:43:07 <Carrie> are we talking linguitics or political-ness? 20:43:07 <RainMa> "Marriage is not 20:43:07 <RainMa> something one tries on for size, and then decides whether to keep; it is rather something one 20:43:07 <RainMa> decides with a promise, and then bends every effort to keep. 20:43:08 <RainMa> " 20:43:11 <Julieclipse> Oh, no, not another Chomsky fan. 20:43:17 <Carrie> fan? 20:43:17 <Julieclipse> We're talking linguistics. 20:43:19 <Carrie> no. 20:43:29 <Julieclipse> But I have read some of his political writing. 20:43:29 <Carrie> I don't ... do the fan thing. 20:43:32 <Julieclipse> Good. 20:43:47 * Julieclipse smiles at the quote. 20:44:03 * Carrie nods, yes, my mother is an audiologist/speech therapist currently reading politcal treatises... 20:44:33 <Julieclipse> Linguistics wise, I'm more than a little offended that one comment from the man cut of funding to the entire, and not unpromising, field of animal language research for some time. 20:44:38 <Carrie> anyways, she mentioned that he was rather responsible for changing the way people were thinking of how language developed.... 20:45:00 > christinarene (~lovelybit@port-28.sisp.net) has joined #nbtsc 20:45:06 <RainMa> ey christina! 20:45:09 <Julieclipse> He was responsible for a lot of things. I don't think I've read a single text in all the social sciences that hasn't talked about him. 20:45:13 * Julieclipse waves hi 20:45:17 <Mossaia> Hi! 20:45:23 <Carrie> heh, yes... 20:45:26 <Julieclipse> In fact, he's one of the top ten most cited people in all the social sciences... 20:45:27 * Enigma laughs at Julieclipse. Baby! 20:45:39 <Julieclipse> The other nine are all dead and famous... Aristotle.. Freud... 20:45:39 * Enigma grins at Julieclipse. Baby! 20:45:40 <Enigma> Immanuel Kant was a real piss-ant who was very rarely stable Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table Baby! 20:45:41 <Enigma> Dave Hume could out-consume Wilhelm Froederich Hegel And Wittgenstein was a beery swine who was just as sloshed as Schlegel Baby! 20:45:43 <Enigma> There's nothing Nieizsche couldn't teach ya 'bout the raising of the wrist Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed Baby! 20:45:45 <Enigma> John Stewart Mill, of his own freel will on half a pint of shanty was particularly ill Plato, they say, could stick it away 'alf a crate of whiskey every day Baby! 20:45:47 <Enigma> Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle Hobbes was fond of his dram And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart: 'I drink, therefore I am.' Baby! 20:45:49 <Enigma> Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed / A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed Baby! 20:45:52 <christinarene> hi marina! hi emma! 20:45:58 <Carrie> now, what did he say about animal languages? 20:46:03 * Carrie is confused 20:46:04 <RainMa> shut up enigma 20:46:05 * Enigma looks irritated, but complies. Baby! 20:46:40 <Julieclipse> Well, for someone who thinks that a language component of the human brain, that only humans have, is solely responsible for language... 20:46:56 <Julieclipse> animal language research is kind of a waste of time and money and scientific interest. 20:47:05 < christinarene has quit (Client exited) 20:47:15 <Carrie> oh.. he said this. 20:47:18 * Carrie sighs 20:47:19 <Julieclipse> I happen to disagree there. 20:47:24 <Carrie> how... wrong 20:47:38 <FoolsRun> !seennick panda 20:47:38 <Enigma> panda (Angel@ip-111-45-47.dallas-l3.navipath.net) was last seen quitting from #nbtsc 2 hours, 31 minutes ago stating (Ping timeout). 20:48:28 <Julieclipse> I mean, he's entitled to his opinion, especially since he spent his career developing such ideas, but I don't like the fact that he's so massively powerful that he can set back an entire, wide ranging line of research just by disagreeing with its theoretical underpinings. 20:48:56 <Julieclipse> (this was back in the late seventies/early eighties, and it wasn't the ONLY thing going on, but it was certainly a factor. Things are much better now.) 20:50 :12 <Carrie> mm, perhaps he has changed his idea *shrugs* because...I really didn't think people still believed only humans had language... 20:50 :25 <Julieclipse> He certainly does. 20:50 :42 <Julieclipse> Well, not many people think that nonhuman animals have *language*. 20:51:09 <Julieclipse> In fact, the definition of language has been changed over time every time it looks like nonhumans might be getting close to meeting it. 20:51:18 <Mossaia> Heh. 20:51:25 --- Loki is now known as LokiAway 20:51:28 <Julieclipse> It's true. 20:51:31 * Carrie finds this disconcerting, because I am interested in language/communication/intelligence of the *other* primates. 20:51:50 <Julieclipse> Are you, now? It's a good interest. 20:51:58 <Julieclipse> Just be careful when you use the word language. 20:52:01 <Carrie> heh, it's very interesting ;) 20:52:09 * RainMa smiles 20:52:10 <Carrie> yes, 20:52:22 * Julieclipse grins 20:52:23 <Carrie> what constitutes a language *koff* 20:52:36 <Julieclipse> Ah, well, that's a difficult question. 20:53:01 <Julieclipse> The most common answer I've encountered uses Hockett's design features. 20:54:02 <Julieclipse> Let's see if I can remember them. There are 13, and the idea is that they're not all individually necessary, but when they occur together, they describe the properties of normal human language. 20:54:37 <Julieclipse> One is using the vocal/auditory channel, which as we all know, falls into the not-a-prerequisite area. 20:54:47 * Carrie nods 20:54:54 <Julieclipse> Along with that are transitoriness and rapid fading. 20:55:07 > EvilC0de (moviman@cr338297-a.poco1.bc.wave.home.com) has joined #nbtsc 20:55:11 <Julieclipse> That is, after we say something (or sign something), it's not there any more. 20:55:20 <Carrie> right.. 20:55:30 <Julieclipse> Another is arbitrariness... 20:55:40 <Aredridel> Huh... written language excludes that a prerequisite; though that is an abstraction of transitive language 20:55:52 <Julieclipse> There's no special reason that a given signifier is paired with a given thing. 20:56:15 <Julieclipse> Written language isn't considered to be language.. 20:56:20 <RainMa> what about onomatopoeas? 20:56:38 <RainMa> i think i spelled that wrong... 20:56:55 <Carrie> ;) spell it like it sounds... 20:57:00 <Julieclipse> <grins> Although, I wrote a great paper talking about the ways in which on-line use of written language is more similar to real time conversation than traditional writing. 20:57:00 <Mossaia> enigma quote 20:57:10 * Mossaia grins. 20:57:42 <Julieclipse> <giggles> onomatopoeia still varies widely between languages, just like vaguely representational signs vary between sign languages. 20:58:11 <Julieclipse> You usually can't hear a novel onomatopoeic word or see a completely novel sign and know what it refers to. 20:58:22 <RainMa> that's true 20:58:22 <Carrie> if you put that paper on the internet, I...and come to think of it, probably my mum would be interested to read it. 20:58:27 <Julieclipse> And those are still minority events. 20:58:36 * RainMa nods 20:58:52 * Mossaia laughs. My brother's annoying me. 20:58:54 <Julieclipse> I will, as soon as I find it. It was on my old harddrive, which died, but I'm almost positive I've got a copy on Ryan's computer back at school. 20:59:06 <Julieclipse> So, I'll put it up in a week. (: 20:59:36 < Fuzzhead has quit (Connection reset by peer) 20:59:47 <Carrie> :) 20:59:54 * Aredridel smiles happily. 21:00:29 <Julieclipse> Lets see... other design features of language... 21:00:37 <Julieclipse> Semanticity... 21:00:49 <Julieclipse> That is, the (arbitrary :) ) symbols have to *mean* something. 21:01:26 <Aredridel> Heh. 21:01:27 <Carrie> yay, writing would fall under that... 21:01:33 <Julieclipse> Displacement. 21:01:54 <Julieclipse> The symbols have to be able to refer to something displaced in time and space. 21:01:54 <Carrie> displacement? how? of what? 21:02:03 <Carrie> oh 21:02:06 * Carrie nods 21:02:08 <RainMa> i don't understand... 21:02:16 <Aredridel> Mmm. "this and that" are not sufficient as nouns. 21:02:30 Enigma Evanclimbedamountainanddidyoga EvilC0de 21:02:31 Evanclimbedamountainanddidyoga EvilC0de 21:02:32 --- Aredridel sets modes [#nbtsc +o EvilC0de] 21:02:49 <Julieclipse> Well, if you can talk about something you did last week, or something that's happening in Australia, you're using your capacity for displacement. 21:02:56 <RainMa> oh, ok... 21:03:05 * RainMa nods 21:03:21 <Carrie> and..this is something that a potential language has to have? 21:03:22 <Julieclipse> "Displacement" more generally refers to being able to conceive of and think about things displaced in time and space, not necessarily in a linguistic context. 21:03:31 <Aredridel> Mmm, yah. 21:03:33 <Julieclipse> It's one of the Big Things that's usually attributed exclusively to humans. 21:03:34 > Fuzzhead (~thatrobyn@c320305-b.crvlls1.or.home.com) has joined #nbtsc 21:03:38 <Fuzzhead> Hello! 21:03:39 --- Aredridel sets modes [#nbtsc +o Fuzzhead] 21:03:41 <Julieclipse> Hi!! 21:03:41 <Aredridel> Mmm, yeah. 21:03:44 <Carrie> that's what I was thinkin. julie 21:03:48 <Fuzzhead> Thanks. 21:04:06 <RainMa> eylo! 21:04:07 > TrentHawkins (joe at dialup132.waypt.com) has joined #NBTSC 21:04:15 <Julieclipse> Okay, so we've got Vocal Auditory, Transitoriness, Rapid fading, semanticity, arbitrariness, displacement... 21:04:28 <Julieclipse> That's 6. 21:04:38 <RainMa> there's a lot... 21:04:44 * TrentHawkins trips over the sleeping rat as he steps in the door 21:04:49 <TrentHawkins> Hey all! 21:04:50 <Julieclipse> There's 13 altogether. Let's see whaht I can remember. 21:05:09 <Julieclipse> One is Total feedback, that is, the ability to receive what you generate... 21:05:16 <Julieclipse> (hear what you say, see what you sign) 21:05:29 <Aredridel> Heh. 21:05:42 > SweetAss (Brentmonke@216-215-65-110.flash.net) has joined #nbtsc 21:05:58 <Julieclipse> Another one is interchangability. Everyone can be a "speaker" as well as a "listener." 21:06:11 <RainMa> hello 21:06:15 <SweetAss> hello jay. 21:06:15 --- Carrie sets modes [#nbtsc +o SweetAss] 21:06:20 <SweetAss> hello Adam whom is away. 21:06:21 --- Carrie sets modes [#nbtsc +o TrentHawkins] 21:06:24 <SweetAss> hi Marina. 21:06:52 <Julieclipse> One is syntax. 21:06:56 <Aredridel> 'eya,. 21:07:02 <Julieclipse> Another big one (and Chomsky's favorite...). 21:08:03 <Julieclipse> Only four more. One of them, I don't remember what it's called, but it says that language can be broken up into non-semantic interchangable units (phonemes, cheremes..) 21:08:18 * RainMa nods 21:08:23 --- Jei is now known as CooperAway 21:08:37 <Julieclipse> One is openness... you have to be able to make new rules. 21:08:56 <Julieclipse> I think I'll have to look up the other two. 21:08:58 <Aredridel> atomicity. 21:09:09 <Aredridel> Hmm. 21:09:13 <TrentHawkins> why have rules in the first place? 21:09:29 < Fuzzhead has quit (Connection reset by peer) 21:09:55 <Aredridel> Heh, if you don't have rules, you have to figure out what the other person's talking about... without rules, it's irreproducable, and you endup talking abou thow to talk exclusively. 21:09:59 <Julieclipse> s/rules/words 21:10:00 <Aredridel> And communication ceases. 21:10:20 <TrentHawkins> uhh 21:10:23 <TrentHawkins> whatever 21:10:23 <Julieclipse> But, yeah, you need socially common meaning. 21:10:27 * Carrie nods 21:11:14 * Aredridel thinks about atomicity. 21:11:50 <RainMa> what's that? 21:11:55 * TrentHawkins wonders what the hell they're talking aboot 21:12:00 <Julieclipse> Atomaticity is interesting in that our atomic units aren't physicall discrete. 21:12:06 <Aredridel> Mmm. Yah. 21:12:08 <Julieclipse> We're talking about a definition of language. 21:12:19 <TrentHawkins> hmmm 21:12:20 <Aredridel> Atomicty = basic units of the language phonemes in english. 21:12:32 <Julieclipse> Well, phonemes in spoken language. 21:12:46 <Aredridel> Individually unbreakabale, and no semantic value. 21:12:55 * RainMa nods 21:12:58 <Aredridel> Mmm, yeah.. Charemes, or letters in written english. 21:12:59 <Julieclipse> And recombinable 21:13:03 <Aredridel> Yep. 21:13:09 <RainMa> neat... 21:13:48 <Aredridel> For example, if you take an arbitrary piece of the letter "b", it's no longer the letter b, and has no sub-meaning. 21:14:03 <Aredridel> So "b" is atomic. 21:14:16 <RainMa> right 21:14:33 * Aredridel distracts himself with the misnomer that "atoms" have. 21:15:02 * Aredridel laughs at the oxymoron "subatomic" 21:15:12 <TrentHawkins> atoms can be split (broken) 21:15:17 * Carrie finds this all terribly interesting, btw :) 21:15:40 <Aredridel> Atoms can be split, and hence, being called "atoms" is a misnomer. 21:15:45 <TrentHawkins> yes 21:15:46 * Mossaia grins. 21:16:01 <Julieclipse> Let's see... another feature is traditional transmission... in our case, cultural trasmission of specifics necessarily begun at an early age. 21:16:11 > quasiergic (Polyergic at ip6.atlanta11.ga.pub-ip.psi.net) has joined #NBTSC 21:16:11 --- ChanServ sets modes [#nbtsc +o quasiergic] 21:16:16 <Aredridel> Hmm. 21:16:21 <TrentHawkins> Just call it a variable 21:16:25 <Aredridel> I don't understand. 21:16:30 <Julieclipse> One was directional reception... we can hear where sounds come from. 21:16:36 <Aredridel> Hmm. 21:16:44 <TrentHawkins> I always wonder how that works 21:16:51 <quasiergic> 'ello 21:16:59 <Julieclipse> Well, traditional I think meaning cultural... it's learned, not wired in. 21:17:05 <quasiergic> delay between ears 21:17:20 <Julieclipse> One of the reasons it works is that we've got two offset ears (and we're not underwater!!) 21:17:20 * RainMa nods 21:17:36 <TrentHawkins> I see 21:17:37 <Aredridel> Hmm.. directional reception doesn't seem to be required, just ~always implied by the hardware... and again, written language doesn't do that. 21:17:43 --- LokiAway is now known as Loki 21:17:46 <quasiergic> .. can we tell which direction the wave is moving? 21:17:57 <Carrie> wb, Loki 21:18:04 <Carrie> mmm? 21:18:05 --- Received a CTCP PING 978154128 from quasiergic (to #NBTSC) 21:18:08 * Loki bows 21:18:15 <Julieclipse> (Some researchers think that one of the thinks that helps dolphins learn in stereo is that their teeth are different on either side of their mouths) 21:18:16 <Carrie> Would that matter? 21:18:30 <Julieclipse> s/learn/hear (yeah, I'm distracted) 21:18:45 <Julieclipse> Well, again, written language isn't language. 21:18:47 <Carrie> (if we can tell which direction the wave is moving) 21:18:59 <Aredridel> Mm... why isn't written language language? 21:19:18 <quasiergic> yes; when a wave expands spherically, you'll feel the vibes along the line beterrn your ear and the source 21:19:19 <Aredridel> (I'm trying to figure out the same) 21:19:31 <Julieclipse> Because it "can't" (or rather, isn't known to) exist apart from spoken language. 21:19:31 <Carrie> quasi: oh. 21:20:16 <Aredridel> Hmm... I think it can, and just usually doesn't, seeing as written is inconvenient. 21:20:23 <quasiergic> most sound expands approximately spherically; nowhere near close enough to spherically to reasonably simulate as a sphere, but more than enough for the wive-orientation to be useful in determining the direction to the source 21:20:23 <Julieclipse> (or signed language, to some extent, although that system never caught on.. pity..) 21:20:31 <Aredridel> Does written chinese count? It's not the same aas the spoken language... 21:20:43 <TrentHawkins> Besides it depends on what your definition of "language" is 21:20:44 <quasiergic> Julia: deaf people do use written language 21:20:44 <Julieclipse> No, but it's still based on the spoken language. 21:20:59 <Aredridel> Hmm... 21:20:59 <Julieclipse> Quasi: That's what I just said. 21:21:09 <TrentHawkins> there are computer languages 21:21:15 <TrentHawkins> which are only written 21:21:19 * Aredridel ponders. 21:21:22 <Julieclipse> Computer languages aren't languages either. 21:21:24 * RainMa grins 21:21:26 <TrentHawkins> they are definately languages tho 21:21:32 <Aredridel> Mmm. Depends on definition. 21:21:39 <quasiergic> .. is there a definition of language y'all decided on before I got here? 21:21:42 * Carrie giggles 21:21:48 <TrentHawkins> Well, that's what my dictionary says 21:21:49 --- Received a CTCP PING 978154355 from quasiergic (to #NBTSC) 21:21:50 <RainMa> julia was telling us 13 of them 21:21:52 <Aredridel> Not quite, Shad. We're bouncing it off of Julia's definition. 21:22:10 <Julieclipse> I listed most of Hockett's original 13 design features of language (I think he added three more later) 21:22:13 <quasiergic> what's Julia's definition? 21:22:18 <quasiergic> oh? 21:22:20 * Aredridel laughs. 21:22:40 <TrentHawkins> A language is simply a form of communication 21:22:46 * Carrie nods 21:22:52 <Mossaia> So is a letter a whole language? :) 21:22:55 <Aredridel> Heh, Joe, that's a rather useless definition. 21:22:59 <RainMa> does a letter have meaning? 21:23:05 <TrentHawkins> Using those rules, you would never be able to communicate with alien life-forms 21:23:18 <RainMa> heh, i think that's the catch... 21:23:25 <Julieclipse> Nono, communication is very different than language. 21:23:31 * quasiergic has found one definition of 'life' that seems to actually work.. it had a list of properties, and anything exibiting a certian number of those properties qualifies as life 21:23:32 <TrentHawkins> ? 21:23:36 <Julieclipse> Everything communicates. 21:23:40 < Evanclimbedamountainanddidyoga has quit (Quit: I do it for the joy it brings cuz I am a joyful boy) 21:23:45 <RainMa> apperantly only humans have language 21:23:47 <Carrie> language is not considered a form of communication, julie? 21:23:49 <Julieclipse> (well, most living things posses some form of communication) 21:24:17 <Julieclipse> Language is one of many, many, many kinds of communication. 21:24:17 <Aredridel> Mmm, language is a form of communication; it, however, is not defined as "a form of communicaiton" 21:24:20 <quasiergic> your glands communicate by manipulating the levels of certian chemicals in your blood 21:24:22 <RainMa> why does language need to be different from communication though? 21:24:26 <quasiergic> that is most definately not language 21:24:47 <Carrie> actually, primates who have been taught sign language then use it and teach their children..... 21:24:53 <quasiergic> language is more spesific than communication 21:24:56 * Mossaia grins. 21:24:57 <Julieclipse> You mean Washoe? 21:25:00 <Aredridel> Communication is signalling between two entities; language is a symbology, with characteristics like the 13 rules. 21:25:04 <Julieclipse> (& friends) 21:25:18 <Carrie> yes, and friends 21:25:21 <RainMa> but why is there a need for specific language? 21:25:33 <Julieclipse> Well, because we do posses language. 21:25:35 * quasiergic suffers for having missed the rules 21:25:36 <TrentHawkins> Um, whatever, thats not what my dictionary says 21:25:37 <Julieclipse> And it's very important to us. 21:25:43 <Aredridel> BEcause it's faster to have an agreed-upon symbology; it allows more abstraction. 21:25:53 <TrentHawkins> So much for language; 21:25:59 <RainMa> well yes it's important, but not as language, as communication 21:26:05 <Julieclipse> We like to think that it's a lot different than the communication that takes place between, say, trees producing chemical signals. 21:26:10 <TrentHawkins> We can't even decide on the definition of the word 21:26:15 * Aredridel laughs 21:26:16 * RainMa grins at trent 21:26:17 * Mossaia bets this would make a good wiki page. 21:26:20 <Aredridel> Mmm. 21:26:22 <RainMa> oo, yeah... 21:26:22 <Julieclipse> Well, language is an important kind of communication because it can do things that other kinds of communication can't. 21:26:33 <TrentHawkins> uhm like what? 21:26:35 <RainMa> yeah... 21:26:41 > Prentice (Prentice at AC93C9D9.ipt.aol.com) has joined #nbtsc 21:26:44 * Mossaia watches language sing and tap dance. Er. Sorry. :) 21:26:50 <quasiergic> wb 21:26:54 <Prentice> Hello again people 21:26:58 <Aredridel> Describe sisplaced events and objects in a two-deectional social context. 21:27:01 <Julieclipse> Well, like utilize features such as semanticity, arbitrariness, displacement, and syntax in consort. 21:27:02 <Aredridel> s/sis/dis/ 21:27:04 <RainMa> but i'd say language is just, and i mean just a subform of communication in general... 21:27:09 <Julieclipse> Allowing you to talk about damn near anything. 21:27:20 <RainMa> including language itself :) 21:27:25 * Mossaia grins. 21:27:31 <TrentHawkins> hmmm 21:27:36 <Julieclipse> This conversation, for example, is one that many people would be surprised to note between two trees using chemical messages. 21:27:39 --- RainMa sets modes [#nbtsc +o Prentice] 21:27:44 * RainMa laughs 21:27:45 <TrentHawkins> I think any form of communication can do that 21:27:48 * Mossaia giggles. 21:27:50 <Aredridel> Oho! 21:27:58 <Julieclipse> (specifically, chemical messages not utilizing any of those features... impossible almost by definition) 21:28:04 <Carrie> well, perhaps trees have no use of such things? 21:28:06 <Julieclipse> Trent: How? 21:28:18 > flea (manwhocan at angx5jry1854.bc.hsia.telus.net) has joined #nbtsc 21:28:19 <TrentHawkins> We are currently communicating through Binary 21:28:28 <TrentHawkins> are we not 21:28:28 <Aredridel> Mmm, yes; if trees had use, they'd have to be capable of communication, more than likely. 21:28:30 <flea> boo! 21:28:34 <RainMa> ey isaac! 21:28:36 <Julieclipse> No, we're not. 21:28:36 <Aredridel> The need and the ability are related. 21:28:38 <RainMa> trent, not really 21:28:48 <flea> hi marina! 21:28:59 <RainMa> we're communicating though written english 21:29:08 <Aredridel> TrentHawkins: we are not communicating through binary. We are communicating via lexemes transmitted with a binary encoding. 21:29:15 <TrentHawkins> yea yea 21:29:18 * RainMa grins at rick 21:29:21 * Julieclipse nods in agreement with Rick 21:29:40 <TrentHawkins> whatever 21:29:43 <flea> i just saw crouching tiger, hidden dragon 21:29:43 <Julieclipse> (Lexemes instead of graphemes??) 21:29:49 * Carrie rather likes seeing language being called (but not defined as) a form of communication, because before you know it, we are feeling rather superior. (which is also amusing) 21:29:57 <RainMa> oh neat isaac, how was it? 21:30:02 <Aredridel> If we were communicating in binary, any binary transmitted would have to be syntactically correct, when in fact, 99.9999% of what could be transmitted in longint chunks is invalid. 21:30:04 * Mossaia giggles. 21:30:05 <flea> thats the coolest movie in the world!!!! 21:30:13 <quasiergic> the "language" used by squids employs gestures and skin colors.. it have a substantial but finite number of messages than can be sent, and is almost entirely built-in to their brains.. ("I am strong", "I am not a squid", "she is mine", ...) 21:30:24 <Aredridel> (well, graphemes, too... ) 21:30:36 * Aredridel nods to Shad. 21:30:42 <Julieclipse> Well, it is a form of communication. Its social aspect was kind of ignored when everyone was paying attention to Chomsky's syntax, but it's getting a LOT more attention these days. 21:30:45 * Carrie nods 21:30:51 <Aredridel> According to the definition Julia gave, that's not a language, but a sophisticated signalling mechanisim. 21:31:07 * RainMa nods... 21:31:12 --- RainMa sets modes [#nbtsc +o flea] 21:31:13 <Aredridel> Since it's a) hardwired, not accuired and b) non-arbitrary. 21:31:25 <Julieclipse> You could sort communication systems according to the features that they share.. 21:31:29 < flea has quit (Quit: booooom) 21:31:35 <Aredridel> Mmm, yes. 21:31:43 <quasiergic> yep.. that's why I used those first quote marks 21:31:58 <Aredridel> With language at the ~top of a pyramid of types, as it has the most or, nearly so, features. 21:31:58 <Julieclipse> I'm betting trees would be down near the bottom, and honeybees, the apes, and bottlenose dolphins would up around the top. 21:32:09 <Aredridel> Mmm, yah. 21:32:20 * quasiergic wonders where ants would be 21:32:20 <Carrie> oh dear... 21:32:28 <Aredridel> And apes and bottlenose dolphins, perhaps, above the "language" line. 21:32:34 <RainMa> perhaps... 21:32:34 <Julieclipse> Not yet. 21:32:38 > Rory (fool@ppp-2349.olypen.com) has joined #nbtsc 21:32:40 <Aredridel> ants and honeybees, just below. 21:32:43 <Rory> Hi 21:32:43 <Julieclipse> But damn close. 21:32:43 <RainMa> elly rory 21:32:46 <Carrie> I rather don't like the bottom/top way of explaining.. 21:32:46 <Aredridel> Mmm, that was a "perhaps" 21:32:51 <RainMa> ello, that is... :) 21:32:56 <quasiergic> above the language line? 21:32:57 <Prentice> What's the address for your dolphin paper Julia? 21:33:07 <Julieclipse> www.nbtsc.org/~julieclipse/dolphinpaper.html 21:33:15 <Aredridel> http://www.nbtsc.org/~julieclipse/dolphinpaper.html 21:33:16 <Prentice> Thanks 21:33:18 * Aredridel laugh 21:33:20 --- Aredridel sets modes [#nbtsc +o Rory] 21:33:23 <Julieclipse> <smiles> 21:33:27 > erin (craporoadm@adsl-64-217-231-145.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #nbtsc 21:33:27 --- ChanServ sets modes [#nbtsc +o erin] 21:33:29 <Julieclipse> Tell me what you think, anyone who reads it. 21:33:32 <erin> dude 21:33:33 <Aredridel> Carrie: why don't you like the pyramid way? 21:33:34 <erin> people 21:33:43 <RainMa> ey erin! 21:33:43 <quasiergic> oh, you're sporting by ~sophistication of communication methods uswed by thos eorganisms, and... gotchya 21:33:50 <erin> marina! 21:34:02 --- CooperAway is now known as Cooper 21:34:13 <Julieclipse> Carrie: You don't like it because it's a classic example of human egomania? 21:34:13 * Rory rolls his eyes 21:34:16 * Carrie needs to go, unfortunately 21:34:18 < Rory has quit (Quit: STUFFF!!!) 21:34:23 <Carrie> julie: precisely! 21:34:26 <Julieclipse> Awww. :( 21:34:32 * RainMa grins 21:34:38 * RainMa sighs and hugs carrie 21:34:40 <quasiergic> ("Marina... I Just met a girl names Marina!... And suddenly I've found, how Wonderful a sound, can beeeeeeeeeee! ..." 21:34:43 <Julieclipse> Carrie: <smile> I'm with you there. We should talk lots more sometime... this is one of my fav subjects. 21:34:50 * Aredridel smiles. 21:34:54 <Carrie> :) 21:34:54 <Aredridel> Mm, yeah... mine too. 21:35:05 * RainMa blinks at shad... you've no idea how many times i've heard that song... 21:35:27 * quasiergic was just talking with his uncle about brain enhancements.. interesting.. 21:35:34 * Aredridel is thinking about music, graphemes vs lexemes and encodings.... 21:35:34 * quasiergic apologises.. 21:35:37 * Carrie pulls her fingers from the keyboard, or will, hopefully, once done typing this. 21:35:43 * Aredridel laughs 21:35:45 * Julieclipse sympathizes... people are always coming up to me and singing the Beetles song. 21:35:52 * RainMa grins 21:35:53 * Aredridel laughs 21:35:57 <Aredridel> Oh, dear. 21:36:03 <quasiergic> the beatles song? 21:36:10 <Aredridel> I just get associations with Ranger Rick. 21:36:11 <Julieclipse> You know, "Julia"? 21:36:12 < Carrie has quit (Quit: Leaving) 21:36:12 * TrentHawkins yawns 21:36:17 * Julieclipse laughs! 21:36:21 * quasiergic is fortunate in that nobody ever comes up to him and sings the shadrach song 21:36:26 * Aredridel grins. 21:36:29 * RainMa snickesr 21:36:29 <quasiergic> hehehe 21:36:36 <quasiergic> actually, I don't.. :o 21:36:42 * Julieclipse thinks about Rick with furry ears and a hat.. 21:36:47 * Aredridel laughs 21:36:48 * RainMa laughs! 21:36:49 <Aredridel> Stop it! 21:36:56 <quasiergic> hehehe 21:37:07 * quasiergic makes a note to get rick a furry hat for christmas.. 21:37:13 * RainMa snickers 21:37:15 <Julieclipse> <giggles> 21:37:20 <RainMa> i gotta go... 21:37:22 <Aredridel> Heh... a ranger hat with furry ears, you mean. 21:37:26 <Aredridel> Aww... 21:37:35 <RainMa> will someone put this conversation on wiki somewhere? i'd lvoe to reread it 21:37:35 <Julieclipse> :( 21:37:45 <Aredridel> Mmm, I can, Marina. 21:37:50 <quasiergic> no.. rick with ears and a furry hat makes more sense than rick with furry ears and a hat 21:37:51 <RainMa> awesome :) 21:37:55 * RainMa hugs everyone 21:38:02 * Aredridel does so.