Geeking Conversation

hm. perhaps this should be split up into two or three conversations... but i can't find a clear dividing line. and i don't have the rest of the ceramics geeking... anyone else want to post it on there?

 [22:32:41] <@darkmyst> geeking time!
 [22:32:48] <@Silverspring> been a long time
 [22:32:53] <@Silverspring> Nooooooooooooooooo
 [22:32:55] <@Silverspring> never!!!
 [22:33:01] <@marina> NO GEEKING
 [22:33:03] <@marina> please
 [22:33:09] <@Silverspring> not the geeks there too hard to slotter
 [22:33:17] <@Silverspring> and there soo damn bony and fatty 
 [22:33:26] <@Silverspring> there hard to cut up and boil
 [22:33:27] <@darkmyst> who said I would eb geeking here?  I'm just going to
be geeking
  [22:33:37] <@Silverspring> ok fine
  [22:33:48] <@Silverspring> but dont say the "g" word
 [22:33:51] <@Platypus> no geeking?
 [22:34:02] * @darkmyst rpm -Uvh's
 [22:34:09] * @Platypus looks disappointed.. lots of people stir up
anti-geek sentiment, but I didn't think we'd get it from -you- Marina..
 [22:34:15] * @darkmyst ./congfigures
 [22:34:20] * @darkmyst make's
 [22:34:24] <@Platypus> you've always been so understanding of us geeks..
*sniff*
 [22:34:25] * @darkmyst make install's
 [22:34:33] <@marina> i just get frustrated when people talk in a language i
don't udnerstand :P
 [22:34:39] <@marina> whether it be french or computer
 [22:34:43] <@Platypus> then ask us to explain it!
 [22:34:48] <@darkmyst> stop trying to think of it as english and it makes
more sense
 [22:35:00] <@marina> the explaination is usually harder to understand than
the thing itself!
 [22:35:09] <@darkmyst> rpm -Uvh is for installing things
 [22:35:12] <@marina> well... you're usually pretty good at explaining
platty... but... hrmph.
 [22:35:12] <@Platypus> then it's a crappy explanation, and you should say
so and ask for a better one
 [22:35:24] <@marina> darkmyst, that is one CRAPPY explaination.
 [22:35:30] <@Silverspring> geeking i always get lost in... i gont get it. i
dont even slightly get it
 [22:35:39] <@Platypus> and because you don't get it it doesn't belong
here?
 [22:35:59] <@marina> because most of hte people here don't get it, it
doesn't belong here
 [22:36:01] <@darkmyst> okay, I'm using rpm -Uvh to install a program on my
computer so I can listen to music okay?
 [22:36:05] <@Platypus> I don't complain when people talk about things that
are unfamiliar to me.. I try to pay attention, or if it's beyond me or
sounds completely boring, I tune it out
 [22:36:11] <@marina> because it interferes with normal conversation...
 [22:36:19] <@marina> i usually do tune out computer geeking
 [22:36:22] <@Platypus> the thing is, generally, most of the people here
-do- get it
 [22:36:24] <@Roya> platy --
 [22:36:32] <@Silverspring> its wounderful that you get it and are so
passionet in the topic its just when you say stuff about computers i don't
get it sso all i do is smile and nod in the background
 [22:36:33] <@Platypus> this is, in fact, a computer-based world.. we have a
lot of geeks who frequent the place
 [22:36:40] * @darkmyst notes that #NBTSC is rather lacking in conversation
about now.
 [22:36:46] <@Roya> when some people are talking really in depth about one
particular subject not a lot of other people understand, they usually trake
it to a different room, right?
 [22:36:48] <@Roya> i think that's all they're saying
 [22:36:55] <@Silverspring> then talk about something EVERYONE will get? 
 [22:37:00] <@marina> rael: what does rpm -Uvh stand for? how is it
different than anything else? what IS it?
 [22:37:00] <@Roya> if the people who want to geek outweigh the others, then
i say let it stay
 [22:37:10] *** Joins: Qete
 [22:37:10] * @marina nods at roya
 [22:37:13] <@Platypus> Roya: that's not true.. only #geekcouch exists as a
specific segregated room for one topic
 [22:37:16] *** Joins: Emma
 [22:37:28] <@marina> wasn't there a car room a while ago?
 [22:37:45] <@marina> geeking seems to be the only subject that consistantly
comes up that not everyone understands
 [22:37:57] <@Platypus> marina: I say that's a damn shame
 [22:38:05] <@Platypus> we'll never learn anything if some obscure interests
aren't discussed
 [22:38:20] <@marina> but not as much as computers are discussed.
 [22:38:24] <@marina> it's a little much, really.
 [22:38:27] <@Platypus> a big old "me too" fest is great for a while, but I
start to want something more than rehashing something we all know and agree
on
 [22:38:46] * @marina agrees
 [22:39:08] <@Platypus> it simply astounds me that people get so offended
when the subject of conversation veers to something they don't understand
 [22:39:15] <@darkmyst> marina: I have no idea what rpm -Uvh stands for. 
all I know is it's used to install programs.  it's like running setup on a
windows computer.
 [22:39:17] <@Roya> you know what platy?
 [22:39:24] <@Roya> i wouldn't mind if it was at ALL decipherable to me
 [22:39:29] * @marina nods at roya!
 [22:39:38] <@Roya> it jsut...seems SO foreign that i can't even begin to
figure otu how to even ask questions
 [22:39:52] * @Jauss nods
 [22:39:53] <@marina> it's people talking about things i don't udnerstand in
a language i don't understand
 [22:40:01] <@Qete> I understand what people are talking about most of the
time when they start geeking, but I have no interest in people getting
excited over the newest computer part they just got.
 [22:40:02] <@Platypus> Roya: do you -want- to decipher it? I don't mean to
sound insulting, I'm seriously asking.. you can in fact learn this stuff if
you ask enough questions and refuse to accept poor answers
 [22:40:04] <@Jauss> though I don't have a problem with geeking
 [22:40:09] <@DYsk> Just start asking questions and people will be happy to
aneswer them. 
 [22:40:17] *** Emma is now known as Mossaia
 [22:40:34] <@Qete> or spend enough time on IRC, and you begin to understand
everything that's geeked.
 [22:40:36] <@marina> erek, most times when i ask questions it's really not
worth all the interpreting i have to do...
 [22:40:42] * @DYsk learned most of what he knows about computers from
asking questions and playing around.
 [22:40:59] <@Platypus> marina: then you are seriously getting bad answers..

 [22:40:59] * @darkmyst ditto's dysk
 [22:41:05] <@Roya> yeah, i do platy. i don't always have time for it, but i
DO love getting exposure to things i don't understand. sometimes though, i
just want to get on irc and have some nice conversation about other stuff.
but the thing with geeking is that you all seem so into it that i feel bad
making you try to stop and answer questions of the most basic nature 
 [22:41:08] <@marina> any geeking answers i've got usually don't make sense
to me unless i ask about five questions to get one real answer
 [22:41:13] <@Platypus> and I strongly encourage everyone to chew geeks out
for giving poor explanations.. but do that instead of chewing them out for
being geeks
 [22:41:20] <@marina> heh... ok
 [22:41:22] * @Roya nods at platy
 [22:41:28] <@Roya> yeah. i have to fight my tendencies to do that
 [22:41:44] <@Roya> ..to get over the fact that it's just frustrating that i
don't understand.
 [22:41:52] <@Platypus> okay, I'll let you in on a little "geek secret"..
and I'm going to generalize a bit here, but..
 [22:41:53] * @darkmyst will try to answer any question about geeky stuff
that he can, as best as he can.
 [22:41:54] *** Joins: Joey
 [22:41:56] * @DYsk does think we have a bit of a rut for discussing
computer related items though.
 [22:42:03] <@Platypus> we don't care at all if you interupt with basic
questions
 [22:42:10] <@Roya> well it makes sense, since we are using a forum created
by geeks after all
 [22:42:11] <@Roya> :)
 [22:42:16] <@Platypus> we all got to know whatever geeky things we know by
doing just that
 [22:42:21] <@marina> platty, sometimes you (you=geeks) do seem to mind
 [22:42:45] <@Platypus> marina: sadly, that's true.. it's an irritating
quirck of the culture that's come up since being a geek started to be
'cool'..
 [22:42:50] <@Roya> yeah, i have to agree with marina...
 [22:42:54] <@Platypus> people get a little snobby about it.. it bugs me..
 [22:42:58] * @Roya nods
 [22:42:58] <@marina> i mean, i'd mind if i was having a conversation with
someone and someone kept interupting to ask really, really, really basic
questions... i'd want them to find some other time to get me to teach them
 [22:43:00] <@DYsk> You can always query one of us and ask a basic question.
 That tends to not interrupt to flow as much.
 [22:43:05] <@marina> yeah
 [22:43:06] <@Roya> true
 [22:43:34] <@Roya> if that was teh case then, those having such an intense
conversation could also have their own room..
 [22:43:37] <@Roya> i mean
 [22:43:49] <@Roya> the problem is that it's specialized
 [22:44:02] <@Platypus> hmm.. okay, Charlie is gonna hate me for this since
it's not finished, but I encourage you all to read the following:
 [22:44:04] <@Platypus> http://www.nbtsc.org/chaz/geek/
 [22:44:06] <@Roya> which actually isn't a problem at all, really. it's just
hard for the average person to carry on a conversation about it
 [22:44:13] * @darkmyst decides to query platty instead of interupting the
conversation
 [22:44:33] * @marina thanks rael
 [22:44:57] * @darkmyst grins
 [22:44:57] <@Platypus> Charlie wrote an excellent rant on geekiness.. it's
on its way to being a definitive spotting guide/book of etiquette..
 [22:45:13] <@Roya> which is why.....if the geeks who want to do teh geeking
are more prevalent than any other kind of conversation, then GREAT it's not
disrupting "the flow of the conversation" at all.
 [22:45:25] * @marina nods!
 [22:45:34] <@Platypus> well, you could always overpower us with some other
conversation
 [22:45:35] <@DYsk> good point
 [22:45:43] *** Joins: Box-Of-Rain
 [22:45:44] <@Enigma> He's a real UNIX man, living in his UNIX land, Making
all his UNIX Plans for nobody
 [22:45:47] <@Roya> well
 [22:45:47] <@Roya> the thing is
 [22:45:59] <@Roya> it's hard when it's gobbeldeegook to us uneducated
souls
 [22:46:17] * @Qete notes that geeks almost always seem to be good for
conversation, especially when they're not talking about computers
 [22:46:22] * @marina nods!
 [22:46:24] * @darkmyst hehs
 [22:46:25] * @DYsk actually gets a little annoyed (even though he
participates in it) at the amount of computer geeking that happens. There
must be other forms of geeking that can occur as well.
 [22:46:31] <@Box-Of-Rain> hehehe
 [22:46:32] <@marina> music geeking!
 [22:46:34] <@Platypus> that is a bit of snobbery I won't quite apolgize
for, although I'll recognize it..
 [22:46:37] <@Qete> beer geeking!
 [22:46:42] <@Roya> someone on here once said......
 [22:46:43] <@darkmyst> umm no
 [22:46:44] <@Qete> pokemon geeking... :P
 [22:46:46] <@darkmyst> AHHH!
 [22:46:50] <@Platypus> generally I don't consider it at all a loss if
geeking ends up drowning out pointless background chatter
 [22:46:51] <@darkmyst> BADDDD
 [22:46:54] <@marina> art geeking... literature geeking...
 [22:47:00] <@marina> star trek geeking ;)
 [22:47:01] <@Roya> oh nevermind i can't remember.
 [22:47:02] <@darkmyst> gooood
 [22:47:03] <@Roya> true platy
 [22:47:05] * @Qete has a pokemon geek for a brother
 [22:47:06] <@Platypus> I mean, being a bit harsh here, quite often the
channel isn't home to much of a conversation
 [22:47:07] <@darkmyst> star wars geeking
 [22:47:13] <@marina> well... pointless is sometimes subjective, platty
 [22:47:15] <@DYsk> Music geeking would be great.  And then it would be my
turn to ask the basic questions.
 [22:47:15] <@Platypus> it's just us being glad everyone is here, and
tossing dumb jokes around
 [22:47:31] <@Qete> unless we get a smaller group
 [22:47:33] <@Platypus> so if a conversation sparks up, even if it's a geek
conversation, I say whoever has the greater passion for talking about
something at the time wins
 [22:47:39] * @Qete nods
 [22:47:39] <@Roya> i just think that at the point where numbers and codes
are so prevalent that no one else can get a word in edgewise, even
non-pointless chatter can't get started
 [22:47:43] <@DYsk> true.  background noise is there to be drowned out.
 [22:47:45] * @marina absollutely agrees
 [22:47:46] * @Roya nods at platy
 [22:47:47] <@Platypus> right, okay, but you're saying "the majority of
people should win"
 [22:47:51] * @Box-Of-Rain really wants to find a group of Grateful Dead
geeks...
 [22:47:57] <@Platypus> I'm saying "the majority of desire to say something
should win"
 [22:48:02] <@Roya> yeah.....or whatever conversations sparks
 [22:48:03] <@marina> the majority of people should win in the main room.
 [22:48:10] <@marina> it's REALLY easy to start another room.
 [22:48:13] <@Platypus> and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think
geeking often overrides an actual serious conversation of another topic
 [22:48:20] <@marina> it has a couple times.
 [22:48:24] <@marina> not often, but a couple times.
 [22:48:33] <@Qete> it has, and it's hard to carry on 2 conversations in the
same room
 [22:48:34] <@Roya> i guess teh deal for me is, that it's hard to START
another conversation if there's geeking going on
 [22:48:37] <@Roya> not that geeking takes over once there is one
 [22:48:39] * @DYsk thinks he remembers that happenning once.
 [22:48:39] <@marina> that too
 [22:48:41] <@Platypus> if it does, for that, I am really truly sorry, and
if you point it out in the future, I will at least not participate in the
hijacking, and possibly chew the other geeks out
 [22:48:45] * @Qete nods at Roya
 [22:49:10] <@darkmyst> I've noticed alot of times when the all high geeks
(platty rick and the otehrs who really know what the hell their doing) start
geekying I get lost.  this is why I generaly stay out of #geekcouch
 [22:49:14] <@marina> heh, we're all usually pretty good at asking geeks to
get a room when geeking interferes with the conversation.....
 [22:49:20] <@Roya> i guess the one thing that the people who don't
understand geeking need to remember is...... it's just as valid, and not to
feel intrusive if you want to talk over/around it, and/or ask questions..
 [22:49:21] <@DYsk> If anyone sees that happenning then please mention it as
it is happenning.
 [22:49:31] <@Platypus> I encourage you to talk over it
 [22:49:37] <@marina> it's HARD to talk over it
 [22:49:38] * @Roya is talking mostly to herself
 [22:49:41] <@Roya> yeah it is
 [22:49:41] <@Platypus> if you can hijack the conversation to another topic,
go for it
 [22:49:59] <@Roya> but such is the nature of irc rooms, eh?
 [22:50:00] <@Enigma> Canadian, eh?
 [22:50:00] <@Platypus> is it difficult, or intimidating?
 [22:50:04] <@Roya> both
 [22:50:04] * @Joey is attempting to read this conversation and make cookies
at the same time
 [22:50:08] <@Roya> very very intimidating
 [22:50:10] <@Roya> which makes it difficult
 [22:50:11] <@Roya> also
 [22:50:14] * @Qete laughs at Joe
 [22:50:16] <@marina> it does seem like sometimes the main room is hijacked
by geeking and if we want a different conversation we have to go somewhere
else
 [22:50:16] <@Roya> you talk at a speed that's really hard to get through
 [22:50:18] * @darkmyst points platty to the query window
 [22:50:32] <@Qete> that happens with plenty of conversations in here
though.
 [22:50:36] <@Roya> here's what i think should happen.......
 [22:50:37] <@marina> yeah...
 [22:50:43] <@marina> but geeking seems to take over REALLY often
 [22:50:48] <@Qete> sometimes a ridiculous silly conversation that I'm not
in the mood for will start up, and take over
 [22:51:12] <@Roya> any time a conversation is specialized and excludes
others to the point that they feel left out, is that another window could be
utilized. not just computer geeking. anything. this is the main room, after
all... but on the other hand..oh i don't know.
 [22:51:22] * @marina nods...
 [22:51:26] <@marina> that makes sense
 [22:51:45] * @DYsk has noticed this happenning more aftter the death of
geekcouch
 [22:51:46] <@Platypus> I think geeking takes over really often for two main
reasons:
 [22:51:56] <@Platypus> 1. geeks really like to talk
 [22:52:01] <@Roya> there are a lot of geeks in here, and always things to
discuss about it
 [22:52:04] * @marina grins, true
 [22:52:14] <@Platypus> 2. there are a lot of geeks here.. it's the nature
of IRC, especially on a private server like this.. we built it so we could
use it too
 [22:52:20] * @marina nods
 [22:52:21] * @Roya nods
 [22:52:32] <@Joey> Indeed, Platty.
 [22:52:38] * @Box-Of-Rain agrees
 [22:52:43] <@Platypus> the main channel is largely a free for all..
 [22:52:46] <@Platypus> I kind of like it that way..
 [22:52:49] * @marina nods
 [22:52:55] <@Platypus> "survival of the fittest conversation", ya know?
 [22:53:09] <@marina> what i'm saying tho, is that it's REALLY easy for
geeking to take over the regular conversation at the slightest pretext
 [22:53:10] * @Enigma giggles.
 [22:53:14] <@Platypus> personally, I would love it if geeking often wasn't
the fittest conversation
 [22:53:14] * @Enigma grins at Platypus.
 [22:53:40] <@marina> heh. yeah. much too few really good conversations
around here!
 [22:53:42] * @Box-Of-Rain notes that geeks are now geeking about geeks...
 [22:53:51] <@marina> we're all way too good at agreeing with each other!
 [22:54:15] * @Roya laughs
 [22:54:17] <@Roya> ohh the irony
 [22:54:19] <@Box-Of-Rain> Hey, is you want conflict, I can help...
 [22:54:26] <@marina> uh oh
 [22:54:26] <@Platypus> Box-Of-Rain: I think you've hit on part of the
problem.. all of us now have this sense of "geeking" as this very special
and distinct phenomenon..
 [22:54:33] <@marina> yeah...
 [22:54:49] <@Platypus> us geeks have encouraged that.. it bugs me a
little.. we've become intensely proud, and other people, if not proud, have
become intensely aware..
 [22:54:58] <@marina> yeah
 [22:55:02] * @Roya nods
 [22:55:04] <@Platypus> and now we have this concept of who is a geek and
who is not, and the geeks operate one way, and the "normals" operate
another, and.. blah!
 [22:55:05] * @Box-Of-Rain nods
 [22:55:18] <@Platypus> I like "geek pride", but I think it does more harm
(on both sides) than good here
 [22:55:28] <@Box-Of-Rain> yeah...
 [22:55:29] <@Roya> yeah. actually i've been cringing at this whole
conversation because of that. 
 [22:55:31] <@Platypus> but I'll stick with it as long as there is geek
resentment, because it's the necessary counter balance
 [22:55:37] <@marina> pride is all well and good... separationism ain't so
good
 [22:55:38] <@Roya> reverse discrimination, eh?
 [22:55:51] <@Platypus> marina: right.. the pride is partly a reaction to
segregation
 [22:55:56] <@marina> yeah...
 [22:56:05] <@marina> vicious cycle...
 [22:56:08] <@Platypus> I was really hurt a few years ago the first time
someone yelled "take it to geek couch!"
 [22:56:16] <@Box-Of-Rain> what, if anything is the technicall definition of
a geek?
 [22:56:22] <@Platypus> but we partly brought that on ourselves by creating
geekcouch in the first place.. *shrugs*
 [22:56:29] <@marina> a geek can be anyone... but i think we're talking
about computer geeks
 [22:56:40] <@Platypus> right.. if we are, that's especially on fair
 [22:56:40] <@Roya> someone who has knowledge above that of the average
person on one specialized topic
 [22:56:48] <@Platypus> "geeking" becomes "talking about computers"
 [22:56:54] <@marina> yeah... well...
 [22:57:03] * @rane sings along to the mix ethan sent her
 [22:57:03] <@marina> that's the fault of the english language
 [22:57:04] <@Platypus> and there is nothing special about talking about
computers.. it's just a topic that a high percentage of users here are fond
of
 [22:57:06] <@Roya> i, for instance, am a ceramics geek. if i started
geeking and taking over about ceramics, anyone would be justified in asking
me to take it to another room
 [22:57:34] <@Platypus> Roya: I disagree.. I would be seriously pissed if
someone told you to take it to another room.. I wish you would geek about
ceramics
 [22:57:43] <@rane> geek roya!
 [22:57:44] <@rane> geek!
 [22:57:50] * @DYsk actually sees nothing wrong with politely requesting
that geeks take upa conversation in geekcouch if people are having a real
conversation in the main room and geeking starts to drown it out.
 [22:57:57] <@marina> if it's interfereing with other conversations........
 [22:58:02] <@Platypus> if people didn't like your ceramics rant, they could
try and beat it with a different topic
 [22:58:09] <@marina> survival of the fittest???
 [22:58:11] <@Roya> but then a war gets started
 [22:58:11] <@Platypus> yes
 [22:58:14] <@marina> why not coexistance???
 [22:58:20] <@darkmyst> ummm platty, *points at query window*  I can't
switch windows so I'm stuck with asking you things there.
 [22:58:25] <@Platypus> coexistence is other channels
 [22:58:31] <@marina> right
 [22:58:32] <@Platypus> but I think the weaker conversations should be the
ones to move
 [22:58:35] <@Roya> if i was going on and on and on, and other people were
having a different conversation,and no one was interested, that's where i
think justification happens
 [22:58:49] <@Platypus> the main channel is the big jumbled free for all
room
 [22:58:50] <@marina> perhaps the conversations with less people might be
the ones to move...
 [22:58:50] * @Enigma wishes she were self-aware...
 [22:58:53] <@Roya> the thing is
 [22:59:00] <@darkmyst> oh wait platty, I fixed the mouse
 [22:59:02] <@Roya> weaker may be the one more people want to see happen
 [22:59:09] <@Roya> what if i just have a stronger presence.....or can type
faster
 [22:59:13] * @Roya grins
 [22:59:26] <@darkmyst> be back
 [22:59:33] <@marina> yeah! then there's the typing faster thing too...
people who type fast definitely seem to dominate good conversations
 [22:59:43] <@marina> and that precise thing has helped/forced me to type
fast.....
 [22:59:46] <@DYsk> This is very true.
 [22:59:56] <@Roya> i think that everybody needs to be OPEN about subjects
they don't know about. they can't run at the first site of new information,
that's for sure
 [23:00:11] <@Roya> we're just talking about the point where technical
language overwhelms an already ocurring conversation, i think
 [23:00:25] <@Joey> lol
 [23:00:31] <@marina> perhaps the main room should be a place for
conversations to start, and then be taken elsewhere so other conversations
can start
 [23:00:41] <@DYsk> mmmmm
 [23:00:52] <@Silverspring> ooo
 [23:00:56] * @Platypus shrugs.. really, I don't like making rules for the
main channel
 [23:01:04] <@Roya> me either
 [23:01:04] <@Platypus> I like polite social conventions people follow out
of respect..
 [23:01:06] <@marina> well yeah
 [23:01:06] <@Box-Of-Rain> yeah, who needs rules?
 [23:01:08] <@Silverspring> i aggree
 [23:01:09] <@Roya> i think it's good when conversations just start up on
here
 [23:01:14] <@marina> i'm talking guidelines
 [23:01:17] <@marina> things to think about
 [23:01:18] <@Platypus> but "take it to geekcouch!" isn't exactly
respectful, so hey..
 [23:01:19] <@Roya> it's just......drowning things out
 [23:01:21] * @Silverspring wounders back in
 [23:01:22] <@Roya> that's the problem
 [23:01:34] <@marina> geeking constantly drowing other conversations out
isn't respectful either
 [23:01:35] <@Box-Of-Rain> the thing about moving conversations is that they
usua;ly fizzle out pretty quick in another channel...
 [23:01:38] <@Roya> and if we can figure out some way that eople can just
change their attitudes, both geeks and others...
 [23:01:57] *** Quits: darkmyst (Client closed connection)
 [23:02:16] <@Box-Of-Rain> Welcome back, Heather
 [23:02:17] <@Roya> (btw everyone: this is the first GOOD discussion i've
had on IRC in a long time. so.. props to ya'll)
 [23:02:23] <@Platypus> I really really really encourage all of you to fight
ranting with ranting..
 [23:02:30] <@Silverspring> maybe if we said " hey look a #Geekcouch "
 [23:02:33] <@Silverspring> or something
 [23:02:45] <@Jauss> that's not any better midear
 [23:02:54] <@Platypus> Silverspring: that's substituting condescension for
just plain insult ;)
 [23:03:04] <@Silverspring> eh?
 [23:03:05] <@Roya> and i really really encourage all of you to be polite
and understanding about what the general atmosphere of the room is before
you come in. (so as not to blast in and demand people move their
conversations)
 [23:03:12] <@Box-Of-Rain> well, that's like saying Please leave, instead of
Beat it... bot a huge difference...
 [23:03:16] <@marina> it's not that computer talk inturrupts my small talk
that i mind, it's that it happens over and over and over and over
 [23:03:43] <@DYsk> Or just. I'm sorry tod isturb you but We are having a
conversation and would it be possible to move your discussion over to
another channel?
 [23:03:52] <@Jauss> call you up in the middle of the night
 [23:03:57] <@Qete> or, #geekcouch please?
 [23:04:01] * @Platypus frowns.. I apologize for when geek conversations
have overwhelmed/precluded other actual converstaion.. but I'm not going to
apologize for the frequency with which they override pointless chatter
 [23:04:05] <@Jauss> like a firefly without any light
 [23:04:06] <@Roya> i think asking people to resume their conversation ina
different room is a polite way of just saying it IS kind of disrupting. we
don't mind if you talk about it, but since a lot of us can't join in, can
you still have it somewhere else?
 [23:04:15] <@Roya> the thing is platy
 [23:04:24] <@Roya> who're any of ous to dictate what makes pointless
chatter?
 [23:04:39] <@Roya> sometimes tha tpointless chatter is what i need, just to
recuperate froma hard day or something
 [23:04:45] <@marina> yeah...
 [23:04:53] <@Roya> and then to come here and feel stressed out again
because i don't understand what's going on, is tough
 [23:04:57] <@Silverspring> it actuly doent bother me too much.... it just
overwellms me sometimes
 [23:05:00] <@Silverspring> but not offen
 [23:05:22] <@Platypus> okay, I understand that, but because you had a hard
day and aren't in the mood for an intense conversation about a subject you
don't feel particularly passionate about, we should clear out and leave the
room largely dead?
 [23:05:32] <@Roya> absolutely not
 [23:05:43] <@Roya> a)it's not that i'm not passionate about it. it's that
it's an entirelyt different language
 [23:05:49] <@Box-Of-Rain> prehaps #smalltalk?
 [23:05:53] <@Platypus> heh
 [23:05:57] * @DYsk laughs
 [23:05:58] <@Roya> b)if i'm the only person who doesn't want to have that
conversation, then no way am i going to ask people to leave. that's just
rude.
 [23:06:03] <@Box-Of-Rain> I think the MOTD mesage needs a bit of
upating...
 [23:06:10] * @Joey thinks so too
 [23:06:22] <@Platypus> bah.. the message of the day is an historical
artifact :)
 [23:06:23] <@Roya> c)but it discourages any other kind of conversation in
here, because like you said, geeks like to talk, there are a lot of geeks on
here, and it can be intimidateing, as we've all pointed out
 [23:06:28] <@Joey> lol, Platty
 [23:06:39] * @DYsk doesn't think motd does snot. It's peoples attutude that
do.
 [23:07:02] * @Platypus nods at dysk.. for a while it was almost a ~turf war
over #nbtsc..
 [23:07:12] * @DYsk remembers
 [23:07:19] <@rane> she was touching her face...i won't be held be
responsible she fell in love in the first place
 [23:07:21] <@marina> when...?
 [23:07:34] <@rane> for the life of me i can not remember what made us think
we were wise and never compromised
 [23:07:35] * @Jauss listens to rane
 [23:07:37] <@Silverspring> is it just geeking that annoys people? for me
its just a 2 person conversation that somtimes is a little exclusie
 [23:07:41] <@Platypus> when the geek segregation began
 [23:07:44] * @marina nods
 [23:07:45] * @DYsk needs to take a shower.
 [23:07:46] <@rane> we were merely freshmen
 [23:07:48] <@marina> that too, definitely heather
 [23:08:18] <@Platypus> two people conversations happen with more than just
geeks
 [23:08:26] <@marina> definitely platty!
 [23:08:31] <@Roya> i agree!
 [23:08:35] <@Silverspring> i know thats my point
 [23:08:38] <@Platypus> I've seen the channel dominated by two people
hashing out travel arrangements, or laughing over some story that only they
share without filling in the rest of us at all
 [23:08:39] * @Jauss too rane. also for lots of reasons
 [23:08:42] *** Joins: Zaphod
 [23:08:43] <@Jauss> i love it though
 [23:08:43] <@Roya> the problem is that computer geeking is a very strrrong
presence and verrry different language
 [23:09:02] <@Roya> but yeah, those two person inside conversations need to
be taken to another window also
 [23:09:11] * @marina lets roya talk for her and smiles
 [23:09:17] *** DYsk sets mode: +o Zaphod
 [23:09:18] <@Joey> You could all learn the language ;)
 [23:09:21] <@Platypus> it's not a different language.. it is in fact
english.. there are words we use a lot that people who aren't big on the
subject don't, but that's true of most things
 [23:09:28] <@Platypus> I bet you've got a whole mess of ceramics jargon
 [23:09:34] <@Box-Of-Rain> Hey, you are welcome to learn computer terms...
they can come in handy from time to time, too...
 [23:09:51] <@Silverspring> so geeks! (or people that do 2 person
conversations in here without getting a room) how do you feel a tactful way
of telling you to move it away to someplace else? or is there even one...
 [23:09:59] <@Roya> most of the geek conversations i've been intimidated by
have been half numbers
 [23:09:59] <@marina> it has enough different words and symbols that it
really might as well be a different language...
 [23:10:26] <@marina> "hey, would you two move into another room?"
 [23:10:33] <@Roya> yeah i could go on about sillica carbates and manganese
and kaolin...... i'm not saying that i shouldn't be asked to another roomif
i start that
 [23:10:58] * @DYsk actually enjoyed the short life of geekcouch because the
upshot was that whenever he wanted to start a geeky conversation there were
people there who were interested in starting one and making a statement that
they were interested in such a conversation by joining the channel./
 [23:11:14] * @Jauss sighs
 [23:11:15] <@Platypus> next time a geek conversation fires up and it starts
to go non-english, I suggest smacking the geeks (lightly) and saying "okay,
I won't tell you to leave, but for the next half hour you are not allowed to
use acronyms.. you have to use the full name for everything"
 [23:11:22] * @marina laughs!
 [23:11:28] <@marina> that'd be awesome...
 [23:11:31] <@Roya> that's a really really good suggestion platy
 [23:11:34] <@Joey> Dang, I forget what PHP stands for.
 [23:11:37] <@Platypus> that will do two things.. it'll sound closer to
english (and you'll pick up more of it, and maybe feel like jumping in), and
it will cause the geeks to slow down
 [23:11:40] * @Jauss laughs
 [23:11:40] <@Roya> see previously i didn't even know they were acronyms,
till you just said that
 [23:11:41] <@marina> that'd be a whole lot easier to understand and learn
from
 [23:11:43] <@Roya> JOEY
 [23:11:45] * @Roya grins and baps joey
 [23:11:55] <@Zaphod> php: hyper-text pre processor.
 [23:12:03] * @Zaphod sticks his toung out at joey
 [23:12:04] * @DYsk remembers a meeting about nuclear weapons that was
funded as follows: Whenever you use an acronym you have to throw a quarter
in the bucket.
 [23:12:10] * @marina grins.....
 [23:12:15] <@Joey> I've heard that one, but how does it relate to 'PHP'?
 [23:12:22] <@Zaphod> no idea
 [23:12:28] * @marina giggles...
 [23:12:28] <@Joey> HTPP is more accurate.
 [23:12:31] <@Platypus> the geeks will also, I imagine, thoroughly enjoy the
challenge
 [23:12:35] <@Zaphod> but thats what php.net told me so I'm inclined to
believe it
 [23:12:38] * @marina grins... apperantly...
 [23:12:44] <@Zaphod> htpp?  wassat?
 [23:12:53] * @Roya likes that suggestion platy
 [23:13:01] <@Silverspring> but even if you guys use the full name i still
don't get it. 
 [23:13:01] <@Joey> hyper-text pre-processor, like you said
 [23:13:12] <@Zaphod> ahhh
 [23:13:13] * @DYsk was thinking about writing an acronym expander into the
internet relay chat server.
 [23:13:19] <@Zaphod> nice
 [23:13:22] <@marina> eentaresting...
 [23:13:23] <@Platypus> Silverspring: then say "okay guys, what the fuck is
?"
 [23:13:30] * @rane askes dysk what that is
 [23:13:32] <@Zaphod> okay platty's, whats rpm -Uvh stand for?
 [23:13:36] <@marina> yeah!!!
 [23:13:37] <@rane> acronym expander
 [23:13:48] <@Platypus> and if you get what sounds like a technically
accurate but seemingly useless answer, say "that was probably accurate, but
also completely useless.. try explaining it to the rest of us instead of to
yourself"
 [23:13:53] <@Joey> Unpack, verbose, ..?
 [23:13:57] <@Roya> also platy
 [23:14:03] * @marina grins happily
 [23:14:08] <@Zaphod> acronym would take things like php and replace them
with hyper-text pre-proccesor
 [23:14:14] <@Silverspring> Ooo thats good
 [23:14:17] <@Roya> there is SO MUCH going on, that by the time you've asked
one thing (i'd hvae to ask almost every single word) that
there's........already 8 paragraphs to decipher
 [23:14:25] <@marina> true.
 [23:14:29] <@Roya> however
 [23:14:33] <@Roya> it's still a good idea
 [23:14:37] <@marina> a very good idea.
 [23:14:37] <@Roya> and i know i'll use it
 [23:14:39] * @Roya grins
 [23:14:54] <@Zaphod> if you make us type the full names it'll take longer
to type therfor giving you more time to ask questions!
 [23:14:56] <@Platypus> Roya: if you ask insistently enough, and participate
in the answer (ask more questions, clarify, state assumptions you've just
drawn so you can be congratulated (geeks do this -a lot- with eachother)
 [23:15:19] * @Jauss grins
 [23:15:20] * @Box-Of-Rain likes his TLAs though (Three Letter acronyms)
 [23:15:27] * @marina giggles...
 [23:15:28] <@Platypus> if you ask a question and seem genuinely interested
in getting answer, you stand an excellent chance of completely derailing the
current conversation
 [23:15:30] <@Zaphod> I like XTLA's better than TLA's
 [23:15:30] * @Joey grins at Neal
 [23:15:35] * @marina laughs
 [23:15:41] <@Roya> zaphod
 [23:15:43] <@Platypus> it will still be a geek conversation, but it won't
be the original geek conversation.. it'll be a geek conversation about your
question
 [23:15:45] <@Roya> what's
 [23:15:47] <@Roya> a
 [23:15:51] <@Roya> XTLA or a TLA?
 [23:15:52] <@Zaphod> XTLA: Extended Three Letter Acronym
 [23:15:53] * @Roya grins
 [23:16:02] * @Roya CRACKS UP
 [23:16:02] <@Zaphod> TLA: Three Letter Acronym
 [23:16:05] * @Platypus roles his eyes.. now they're doing meta-acronyms..
 [23:16:05] <@Joey> Wouldn't that be ETLA?
 [23:16:12] * @Jauss giggles
 [23:16:13] <@marina> X for Ex
 [23:16:14] <@Zaphod> XTLA sounds better
 [23:16:16] <@Jauss> no, X
 [23:16:19] * @DYsk laughs. A few weeks ago he had a meeting with the
ATSDR.
 [23:16:20] <@Joey> True.
 [23:16:20] <@marina> looks fancyshmancy too
 [23:16:24] <@Jauss> ;)
 [23:16:25] <@Zaphod> it's runnign on an X server.
 [23:16:26] <@marina> erek.......
 [23:16:29] <@Platypus> Zaphod: rpm -Uvh is "Upgrade, verbose, hashmarks"
 [23:16:32] <@Zaphod> don't ask me what an x server is.
 [23:16:34] <@DYsk> Talk about an XTLA.
 [23:16:36] <@Zaphod> and RPM is?
 [23:16:39] <@marina> platty, what does that mean??
 [23:16:42] <@Joey> aha, at least I got one right.
 [23:16:47] <@Platypus> RPM is Redhat Package Management
 [23:16:55] * @Roya is already feeling stressed. and you guys are joking
around. eeek.
 [23:16:55] <@Zaphod> ahhhh
 [23:17:02] <@Zaphod> thank you platty
 [23:17:08] <@Joey> I always wondered what RPM standed for...
 [23:17:12] * @DYsk always heard it as Redhat Package Manager.
 [23:17:13] * @Roya realizes that there are no acronyms associated with
ceramics except EPK
 [23:17:15] <@marina> it's like math... so stressful...
 [23:17:20] <@Platypus> okay, this is rude, but I humbly request the floor
for a second to adequately explain RPM in non-geek language
 [23:17:21] * @Roya nods at marina
 [23:17:25] <@Roya> i think i have geek anxiety
 [23:17:29] <@Box-Of-Rain> Now-a-days, wouldn't it be TLA-X?
 [23:17:29] <@Roya> just like math anxiety
 [23:17:30] * @Zaphod grants platty the floor
 [23:17:38] <@marina> what does "upgrade, verbose, hashmarks" mean or do?
 [23:17:39] <@Roya> go for it platty
 [23:17:46] * @Zaphod ditto's marina
 [23:17:50] <@Platypus> okay, rpm is actually a beautiful thing, and quite
relevant to this server
 [23:17:57] * @marina settles back happily to listen
 [23:18:03] * @Roya passes popcorn to marina
 [23:18:05] *** DYsk is now known as DYsknothere
 [23:18:08] <@Platypus> you know how you need to install software to make
your computer do new stuff, right? (okay, that's unnecessarily basic, but
bear with me)
 [23:18:18] <@Platypus> like you had to download and install an IRC program
to get here..
 [23:18:21] * @marina grins. basic is good... very good.
 [23:18:23] <@Roya> (not unnecesary for some of us..)
 [23:18:28] <@Roya> right
 [23:18:33] <@Platypus> okay, well that's true of servers too
 [23:18:41] * @Jauss watches as Platty enters the Attitude Of Teaching
 [23:18:43] <@Platypus> like we had to download and install another program
to server IRC
 [23:18:49] <@Platypus> er, serve
 [23:18:53] <@Roya> (platy, hate to do this to you, but can you define
server...?)
 [23:18:55] <@marina> that makes sense
 [23:19:00] <@marina> oo! me me!
 [23:19:03] <@Platypus> and we had to download and install another program
to serve web pages
 [23:19:05] <@marina> i can define server!
 [23:19:07] <@marina> sort of...
 [23:19:08] <@Platypus> marina: go for it! :)
 [23:19:18] * @Roya giggles
 [23:19:19] <@marina> it's a... hrm. well, i know what it does... 
 [23:19:23] <@Platypus> (Roya: don't hate to do it.. questions rock :)
 [23:19:23] <@Joey> loll
 [23:19:27] <@marina> ack. platty, i'm handingit to you...
 [23:19:33] * @Roya grins at platy
 [23:19:38] * @Platypus grins.. s'ok
 [23:19:39] <@Zaphod> oooh can I try?
 [23:19:51] <@Platypus> yeah, go for it.. but gimme the floor back when
you're done so I can finish with rpm
 [23:19:56] <@Zaphod> k
 [23:19:56] <@Box-Of-Rain> A Server is a program, running on a computer that
handles incoming, amnd outgoing data, through a network, of some sort,
usualy the Internet.
 [23:19:57] <@Platypus> (please)
 [23:20:08] <@Platypus> Box-Of-Rain: that's technically accurate but useless
;)
 [23:20:14] <@Zaphod> neal:  thats correct but not exactly bassic.
 [23:20:30] <@Box-Of-Rain> okay, who did not get that?
 [23:20:32] <@marina> network! that's what a server is... broadcasts and
stuff...
 [23:20:47] * @DYsknothere questions if most servers are on the internet but
that's beside the point.
 [23:20:59] * @Zaphod stops typing and thinks that marina's explanation is
better than his own and shuts up for a while
 [23:21:02] <@Roya> how does that differ from.......anything else computer
related?
 [23:21:08] <@Roya> i'm not sure how to ask this question
 [23:21:11] <@Platypus> can I try?
 [23:21:17] <@Roya> are there different types of servers then, to further
define it?
 [23:21:20] <@marina> roya, your computer will just recieve stuff, not
broadcast to anyone else
 [23:21:25] <@marina> ...sort of...
 [23:21:29] <@Platypus> (I apologize for hogging the explanation stuff, but
I've got a couple years of doing it for a living going.. ;)
 [23:21:37] * @Roya laughs!
 [23:21:38] <@Zaphod> go ahead platty
 [23:21:39] * @marina thinks you do it way better than anyone else...
 [23:21:49] <@marina> way, way, waywayway better...
 [23:21:54] <@Platypus> bah.. I explain computers stuff well 'cause I spend
a lot of time doing it
 [23:21:59] <@Roya> (it's also less confusing when only one person does it)
 [23:22:03] <@marina> so 'splain! ;)
 [23:22:03] <@Platypus> I would really really suck at explaining ceramics
 [23:22:06] <@Roya> (sorry)
 [23:22:08] * @Zaphod wonders what the hell his computer is trying to tell
him...
 [23:22:13] <@Platypus> (that's like pots and stuff, right?)
 [23:22:17] * @marina laughs
 [23:22:27] * @Roya winces and laughs
 [23:22:30] <@Platypus> (um.. seriously, please answer that sometime in the
near future)
 [23:22:48] * @Roya reserves the next big conversation space for just that
;)
 [23:22:54] <@Platypus> okay, a server actually refers to two things
 [23:22:56] <@Platypus> sweet!
 [23:22:57] <@Zaphod> I'll be back.
 [23:23:03] *** Quits: Zaphod (Quit: evil damn computer.)
 [23:23:08] * @DYsknothere thinks that explaining things is a skill that
must be learned through doing it over and over on a specific topic.
 [23:23:12] <@Platypus> there are "servers" as in computers, and "servers"
as in programs
 [23:23:17] <@Roya> aaaah
 [23:23:20] <@Roya> that helps
 [23:23:34] <@Platypus> which makes it really confusing, 'cause I can say
"web server" and be talking about either a computer, a program, or both
 [23:23:35] <@Box-Of-Rain> (Platty: yes, although one inplys the other)
 [23:23:52] <@DYsknothere> yes and no.
 [23:23:55] <@marina> what's the difference? what does each do?
 [23:24:06] <@Platypus> in the case of software, a server is a program that
'serves' some manner of information
 [23:24:18] <@Box-Of-Rain> but any computer running a Web Server program,
becomes a Server Computer, at the moment the program starts working.
 [23:24:19] <@Platypus> that is, it provides it, rather than receiving or
displaying
 [23:24:35] <@Platypus> like, you can think of a publisher as a "book
server"
 [23:24:37] <@Roya> (like a tennis serve! hahaa)
 [23:24:49] * @marina nods. that makes sense.
 [23:24:59] <@Roya> so it deals it out, basically
 [23:25:00] <@Roya> ?
 [23:25:02] <@Platypus> yep
 [23:25:08] <@Platypus> exactly
 [23:25:26] <@Platypus> it can get a little more complex than that though,
in that you can interact with it
 [23:25:30] <@Roya> but that's only software?
 [23:25:34] <@Box-Of-Rain> (or administrates it's operation, in some cases,
like this IRC server)
 [23:25:40] <@Roya> so...exactly like a tennis serve
 [23:25:41] * @Roya grins
 [23:25:43] <@Platypus> sort of.. just a sec, and I'll get to the computer
definition
 [23:25:46] <@Roya> ok
 [23:26:02] <@Platypus> 'cause I also need to explain "client"
 [23:26:04] <@marina> so... it's like a person at the help desk of a big
building...
 [23:26:15] <@Box-Of-Rain> marina: Yes
 [23:26:22] <@Platypus> a "client" computer or program is sort of the
opposite of a server.. a client requests stuff from a server, and interprets
it
 [23:26:25] * @Roya likes visual. yes. picture good.
 [23:26:41] <@Roya> so this can all be likened to people in different
offices wanting things from each other
 [23:26:41] <@Platypus> like those of you who have mIRC installed.. that's
your "IRC Client"
 [23:26:42] * @Roya grins
 [23:26:42] <@marina> a client is like a person who comes up to the help
desk and asks for directions or flyers...
 [23:26:44] *** Joins: Ryland
 [23:26:44] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Ryland
 [23:26:48] <@Platypus> yeah
 [23:26:56] <@Roya> hmm
 [23:26:58] <@Platypus> for web stuff, you might have Netscape or Internet
Explorer
 [23:27:01] * @Ryland sits on Dr. Nicks lapn, nad listens
 [23:27:03] <@Platypus> those would be your web client
 [23:27:15] <@marina> and that client requests stuff like webpages from the
server...
 [23:27:17] <@Platypus> Ryland: we're explaining geeky stuff :)
 [23:27:22] <@Platypus> marina: 'zactly
 [23:27:31] <@Roya> a client is a client
 [23:27:36] <@Roya> perfect
 [23:27:38] <@marina> but wait, aren't there two servers involved then? the
one the webpage is on, and the one your copmuter is connected to?
 [23:27:44] <@Roya> and a server serves information. gee. it actually does
make sense.
 [23:27:47] <@Platypus> and with web stuff, it's all nice and simple.. the
client says "gimme the page called nickspage.html"
 [23:27:55] <@Platypus> marina: yeah.. just a sec, I'll get to that too! :)
 [23:27:57] <@Roya> and the server gives it?
 [23:27:59] <@Platypus> yep
 [23:28:06] <@Platypus> the server says "okay, here ya go.. now we're done"
 [23:28:08] * @marina grins...
 [23:28:12] <@Platypus> and that's it.. they don't talk to eachother
anymore
 [23:28:16] * @marina nods
 [23:28:20] <@Roya> until teh client wants something else
 [23:28:21] <@Roya> right?
 [23:28:25] <@Platypus> right
 [23:28:42] <@Platypus> but in the case of a web server, the next time, the
server doesn't "remember" the previous request
 [23:28:49] <@Ryland> but can't the server, tell the browser, that it has
something new, that it needs?
 [23:29:01] <@Platypus> each new interaction between the web client and the
web server exists on its own without connection to the others
 [23:29:06] * @marina nods
 [23:29:11] <@Roya> but wait
 [23:29:11] <@marina> like flipping a coin...
 [23:29:13] <@Roya> what about in cases like...
 [23:29:16] <@Roya> remebering passwords and stuff?
 [23:29:18] <@Platypus> Ryland: there have been some efforts made in that
area, but I generally think it's a bad idea..
 [23:29:20] <@Roya> or am i way off?
 [23:29:25] <@Platypus> Roya: no, you're right on
 [23:29:29] *** Joins: Vicki
 [23:29:32] *** marina sets mode: +o Vicki
 [23:29:39] <@Vicki> yellow!
 [23:29:40] <@Platypus> at it's most basic level, the web interaction is
like I described above
 [23:29:54] <@Roya> ok
 [23:29:54] <@Platypus> but that's not always terribly useful, so that's
where people like Ari come in :)
 [23:29:59] <@Roya> basic, good
 [23:30:08] <@Platypus> so Ari comes along and writes something like wiki
 [23:30:10] <@marina> oo... complications...
 [23:30:13] <@Silverspring> quick hide the kittens
 [23:30:19] <@Silverspring> vickies back
 [23:30:21] * @Jauss grins
 [23:30:24] <@Platypus> and wiki is actually a program of it's own, which is
seperate from the web server
 [23:30:27] <@Box-Of-Rain> Remembering passwords, is a) unwize, and B) done
with data on the client's side of things.
 [23:30:40] <@Vicki> hey! that's mean, poet!
 [23:30:43] * @Vicki laughs
 [23:30:43] * @Roya interrupts the conversation to laugh about the fact that
"love shack" just came on the radio
 [23:30:53] <@marina> but neal, doesn't the server have to remember a
password to let you login?
 [23:30:53] <@Joey> Remembering passwords can be done server-side as well.
 [23:30:55] <@Platypus> (it's actually a little more complicated than even
that.. wiki is written in a language that is built in with the server.. but
in basic terms, you can think of them as seperate programs)
 [23:30:57] * @rane waves to room
 [23:30:58] * @Roya blinks
 [23:30:59] <@rane> farewell
 [23:31:05] * @marina hugs mel
 [23:31:09] <@Platypus> so with wiki..
 [23:31:14] * @Roya hugs mel
 [23:31:19] <@Platypus> you tell netscape to ask for a wiki page
 [23:31:28] <@Platypus> netscape contacts the server and says "gimme
wiki/WhatEver"
 [23:31:35] * @Jauss hugs mel. dai
 [23:31:39] <@Roya> so the client askes the server for wiki
 [23:31:44] <@Platypus> yep
 [23:31:46] * @rane hands out chocolate wishes
 [23:31:56] <@Platypus> and then the web server looks, and sees that wiki
isn't just another file, it's also a program itself
 [23:32:03] <@marina> so it's the server giving the client access to another
program...?
 [23:32:04] <@Platypus> so instead of just sending the file, the web server
program runs the wiki program
 [23:32:11] <@Roya> so now it's two servers contacting each other?
 [23:32:12] <@Jauss> ah
 [23:32:28] <@Roya> one server running the other server?
 [23:32:30] <@Roya> i'm confused
 [23:32:34] <@marina> wiki is a program
 [23:32:36] <@Joey> bbiab
 [23:32:36] <@Platypus> Roya: sort of.. you can think of the web server as
being a 'wiki client' in that case.. but we don't actually say that
 [23:32:37] <@Box-Of-Rain> marina: Not really.  The server puts the password
on the client's hard drive and the client automastically gives it to the
server when requested, like the server saying "Hols this card for
me"..."Okay can I see that card now?"
 [23:32:39] *** Quits: Joey (Quit: Client Exiting)
 [23:32:41] <@Roya> program different, right ok
 [23:32:45] *** Joins: Zaphod
 [23:32:48] <@Platypus> no, it's a valid comparison
 [23:32:54] *** Quits: rane (Quit: make a chocolate wish)
 [23:33:03] <@Platypus> it's the same sort of interaction.. the server is
requesting info from wiki just like netscape requested info from the server
 [23:33:13] <@Roya> ok
 [23:33:14] <@Platypus> (let me know if any of this doesn't make sense)
 [23:33:23] <@Roya> they've just...got different "status" then?
 [23:33:27] <@Platypus> yeah
 [23:33:39] <@Platypus> another work for server status is "daemon"
 [23:33:40] <@marina> neal: but there has to be a way for the server to
recognize the client and the server can't do that if it doesn't recognize
the client at all
 [23:33:45] *** Silverspring is now known as Birthdaygirl
 [23:33:48] <@Roya> can you crystalize that last part again? just so it's
clear in my brain
 [23:33:53] <@Platypus> if you hear a geek say "the web daemon", what the
mean is "the program that acts as a web server"
 [23:34:02] <@Roya> like wiki
 [23:34:05] <@Roya> ?
 [23:34:12] <@Roya> what is wiki again?
 [23:34:17] <@Platypus> wiki is a program
 [23:34:17] <@marina> gotcha!
 [23:34:17] * @Roya eeps. she's a little slow at this.
 [23:34:26] <@Box-Of-Rain> Happy Birthday!
 [23:34:30] <@Roya> program. so the client askes the server for this
program.
 [23:34:43] <@Roya> the server runs the program, instead of just handing the
client teh file
 [23:34:46] <@Platypus> yep
 [23:34:59] <@Platypus> although the client doesn't actually -know- it's
asking for a program
 [23:35:03] <@Roya> just..because they can?
 [23:35:04] <@marina> so the client accesses the program through the
server...?
 [23:35:04] <@Platypus> it thinks wiki is just another page..
 [23:35:06] <@Roya> what?
 [23:35:08] <@Vicki> are all web pages programs? or is something special
about Wiki?
 [23:35:08] <@Platypus> but the server knows better
 [23:35:18] <@Roya> so without the server the client can't get the program
 [23:35:22] * @marina nods
 [23:35:23] <@Roya> or the page
 [23:35:27] <@Platypus> yeah.. okay, let me go through this step by step
 [23:35:29] <@Platypus> right!
 [23:35:33] * @Roya grins
 [23:35:34] <@marina> which is what happens when paradoxical crashes and we
can't do anything!
 [23:35:46] <@Roya> ahhhhhhh
 [23:35:48] <@Box-Of-Rain> marina: The server requests the data "Password"
the Client, Lets say Netscape, checks to see if it already has that data, if
it does then it sends it to the server, otherwize it asks the user for it.
 [23:35:49] <@Roya> because the server is down
 [23:35:51] <@Roya> wooohoo
 [23:35:53] <@Platypus> 1. you go to nbtsc.org/wiki/MyPage?login in
netscape
 [23:35:54] <@Roya> it makes sense!
 [23:36:13] <@Platypus> 2. netscape contacts the nbtsc.org web server and
says "give me /wiki/MyPage?login"
 [23:36:16] <@marina> neal, that's not explaining anything to me
 [23:36:44] <@Platypus> 3. the web server checks to see just what sort of
page /wiki/MyPage?login is.. in this case, it finds that it's a program, not
just a plain old page
 [23:36:52] *** marina sets mode: +o Zaphod
 [23:36:56] <@Platypus> 4. the web server runs wiki
 [23:37:15] <@Roya> so if it's just a plain old page
 [23:37:19] <@Roya> the server hands teh client the file?
 [23:37:22] <@Platypus> 5. wiki sees that you thoughtfully included
"?login", and sends a response asking for a username and password
 [23:37:25] <@Platypus> Roya: yep, exactly
 [23:37:29] <@Roya> are most websites jsut plain old pages and wiki's
special?
 [23:37:39] <@Zaphod> eys
 [23:37:40] <@Zaphod> yes
 [23:37:41] <@Platypus> 6. wiki's response gets handed to the web server
 [23:37:47] <@marina> wiki's a program, cause you can edit it and interact
with it...
 [23:37:59] <@marina> i think
 [23:38:01] <@Roya> so any page that you can interact with is a program?
 [23:38:03] <@Platypus> 7. the web server sees that wiki's response is
actually a response to your netscape request, and sends it back to netscape
 [23:38:17] <@Roya> so teh server is the translater
 [23:38:18] <@Vicki> is wiki a program because it's writen in PHP?
 [23:38:20] <@Platypus> 8. netscape gets that response, interprets it as a
password request, and prompts you for one
 [23:38:34] <@marina> this is getting a bit too detailed...
 [23:38:45] <@Platypus> Vicki: yeah.. it would actually be more accurate to
say 'script' instead of 'program', but we're simplifying for ease of use
 [23:38:45] <@Roya> (what's PHP?)
 [23:39:04] <@Vicki> like HTML but more complicated
 [23:39:07] <@Vicki> I think
 [23:39:09] <@Platypus> PHP stands for Pre-Hypertext-Processor (or something
like that, it's a dumb acronym)
 [23:39:15] <@Zaphod> Roya: PHP is a way to make webpages that interact with
you, program ones
 [23:39:17] <@Platypus> basically PHP is a programming language
 [23:39:21] <@Roya> ok
 [23:39:23] <@marina> cool
 [23:39:29] <@Platypus> but PHP is special, in that it's specifically
designed for programming web stuff
 [23:39:29] <@Vicki> hehe, four answers there
 [23:39:33] <@Platypus> instead of being general prupose
 [23:39:34] <@Box-Of-Rain> marina: okay... lets me put it this way: all the
server ever does, with the remembering of passwords is request data. if you
have told Netscape (the client) to remember the password then netscape will
store it in a cookie (like writing it down in a notepad) automatically give
the password to the server when the server asks for it. if netscape doesn't
have the password handy, it will ask you for it.
 [23:39:34] * @Zaphod grins
 [23:39:56] <@Platypus> then we get to stuff like IRC..
 [23:40:02] <@marina> neal, but the server has to recognize the data that's
handed to it or it'll just admit anyone
 [23:40:18] <@Platypus> marina: yeah.. hmm.. let me finish my wiki story
 [23:40:23] * @Roya humbly asks for less chatter for the sake of
clarity...............(eep)
 [23:40:24] <@marina> mmkay
 [23:40:24] <@Platypus> so netscape asks you for a password..
 [23:40:30] * @marina apologizes
 [23:40:40] <@Platypus> ah, no, didn't mean you were getting ahead of me..
 [23:40:50] <@Platypus> 9. so you enter your username and password and hit
enter
 [23:41:21] <@Platypus> 10. netscape sends a new request to the web server..
this time it says "gimme /wiki/MyPage?login, and my username is  and
my password is "
 [23:41:38] * @marina nods
 [23:41:43] <@Platypus> 11. the web server again checks to see what sort of
page /wiki/Mypage?login is, sees it's a program, and runs it as before..
 [23:41:52] <@Platypus> but this time, it also includes the username and
password you sent, since that's part of the request
 [23:42:09] <@Platypus> 12. wiki runs and verifies that your username and
password are correct
 [23:42:19] <@marina> how does it do that though...?
 [23:42:21] <@Platypus> now here is were Ari did something rather clever.. 
 [23:42:33] <@marina> just looking at a list of passwords to see if it
matches?
 [23:42:36] <@Platypus> wiki needs to be able to check your username and
password easily.. so what it does is check your mail
 [23:42:56] <@Box-Of-Rain> marina: well, yes, but that has nothing to do
with remembering the passwpords itsels, that aspect is handles by PAM
(Password Authentication Modual), it is the one that looks at the password
written on the notepad, and says "yup that's good" or says "nope, sorry".
 [23:43:01] <@Platypus> 13. wiki contacts the nbtsc.org mail server (which
is yet another program)
 [23:43:11] <@Platypus> 14. the mail server says "who the heck are you?"
 [23:43:26] <@Platypus> 15. wiki says "I'm  and my password
is , let me see my mail!"
 [23:43:35] <@marina> huh...
 [23:43:51] <@Platypus> 16. the mail server does what it was designed to do
already, and checks your username and password with the big list of
usernames and passwords it has
 [23:44:05] <@Platypus> 17. if youre username and password match, the mail
server let's wiki see you have some mail
 [23:44:11] <@marina> wow, that is cool
 [23:44:24] <@Jauss> yah
 [23:44:29] <@Platypus> 18. wiki doesn't actually open your mail, it just
verifies that the mail server was going to let it.. that means your username
and password are correct! ;)
 [23:44:38] * @marina grins
 [23:44:43] <@Platypus> I've confused myself once or twice with this..
 [23:44:55] <@Roya> with what, exactly?
 [23:44:56] <@Platypus> I'll be using the server, and I'll be reading mail
on it.. and at the same time I'll login to wiki
 [23:45:00] <@Box-Of-Rain> (The mail server probably uses PAM which is built
into the the computer's operating system)
 [23:45:09] <@Platypus> and when I login to wiki, my mail program on the
server will say "warning, someone else just checked your mail!"
 [23:45:16] * @marina laughs
 [23:45:23] * @Jauss laughs
 [23:45:24] * @Roya grins
 [23:45:33] <@Platypus> the first time it happened I thought someone stole
my password..
 [23:45:45] <@Platypus> then I remembered how wiki was built and giggled for
a few minutes.. (I'm easily amused ;P)
 [23:45:53] * @Roya squirms. she has togo to the bathroom but can't stand to
miss anything!!!
 [23:45:54] * @Jauss grins
 [23:46:02] <@Roya> lol
 [23:46:10] <@george> everyone shut up until roya comes back!
 [23:46:12] * @Zaphod hits platty's pause button
 [23:46:14] <@marina> i want to copy and paste this whole conversation
somewhere, some time...
 [23:46:15] * @Platypus laughs.. I'll put it on pause..
 [23:46:15] <@Box-Of-Rain> heh, That's the afvantage of tapping directly
into the Password Authentication's Application Programming Interface (PAM's
API)
 [23:46:20] * @Roya giggles
 [23:46:25] <@Roya> (thanks zaph i'll be ok ;))
 [23:46:30] <@Roya> it's ok
 [23:46:30] <@marina> neal, that really means absolutely nothing to me...
 [23:46:33] <@Roya> go for it
 [23:46:37] <@Zaphod> neal.  even I don't know what the hell that meant
 [23:46:45] * @Roya cracks up!!!!!!!!
 [23:46:50] <@Platypus> Box-Of-Rain: you're too geeky ;)
 [23:46:55] * @Zaphod grins
 [23:46:59] * @Box-Of-Rain cowers in shame
 [23:47:02] * @marina tries hard not to laugh too loud and wake up her
brother
 [23:47:05] <@Platypus> (yes, that's a compliment)
 [23:47:10] <@Zaphod> wheres that M come from in PAM's
 [23:47:12] * @Roya just woke up her sister
 [23:47:30] <@Platypus> okay, I'll finish my little wiki story..
 [23:47:37] <@Roya> what's a PAM? (my mom is a Pam..)
 [23:47:43] * @Zaphod grins
 [23:47:50] <@Zaphod> API I know.  sorta.
 [23:48:00] <@Platypus> 18. wiki, now being satisfied that you didn't like
about your username and password, sends the contents of wiki page you asked
for back to the web server
 [23:48:28] <@Box-Of-Rain> PAM is the Password Authentication Modual, like
the security guard, who asks you if you know the password, and opens the
door accordingly.
 [23:48:38] <@Roya> (thanks neal)
 [23:48:45] <@Platypus> (there's some more Ari-coded cool stuff going on
here, in that before wiki sends the page it makes it look all purty... you
know, the way editing a wiki page looks hideous, but viewing it is nice..
wiki takes the stored hideous version and translates to pretty..)
 [23:49:01] * @george laughs
 [23:49:02] <@Roya> wow.
 [23:49:06] <@Roya> i never realized before how.........
 [23:49:10] <@marina> nice...
 [23:49:18] <@Roya> understandable these complications can be
 [23:49:19] * @Roya grins
 [23:49:21] <@Box-Of-Rain> API is an Application Programing Interface,
meaning a system that programmers can use when writing programs so they
don't need to do as much work on they're own.
 [23:49:24] <@Platypus> which saved everyone from having to know crap like
HTML
 [23:49:34] * @george thinks about guitars
 [23:49:46] <@Platypus> right.. an API is like a toolbox..
 [23:49:49] * @Roya squirms again
 [23:49:52] <@Roya> ok
 [23:49:52] <@Roya> brb
 [23:49:54] * @Roya grins'
 [23:49:54] <@marina> an interface. that makes sense.
 [23:49:56] <@marina> RUN ROYA RUN!
 [23:50:05] <@marina> a translator program
 [23:50:13] <@Platypus> if I wanted to make a house, I could either build
all the tools myself (which would be a real pain), or I could get a
carpentry API
 [23:50:15] *** Roya is now known as Hurrying
 [23:50:15] <@Box-Of-Rain> yeah
 [23:52:06] *** Hurrying is now known as Roya
 [23:54:44] <@Ryland> Nick, you should edit this conversation down a bit,
and record it some place
 [23:54:47] <@marina> so! back to geeking!!
 [23:54:53] * @Platypus grins at marina
 [23:54:54] * @marina grins...
 [23:54:55] <@Roya> yeah that's a good idea
 [23:54:58] <@Ratio> Did Dr. Nick explain it all to you?
 [23:55:03] <@Roya> ok
 [23:55:07] <@Roya> another question
 [23:55:10] <@Platypus> (y'all aren't just being really nice and just
humouring crazy old platty, are ya? ;)
 [23:55:15] <@Roya> Are there different types of programs?
 [23:55:20] <@Roya> what defines a program again?
 [23:55:22] <@marina> absolutely positively not... this is AWESOME
 [23:55:28] <@Box-Of-Rain> (Yeah, we are, actually, tahnks for asking)
 [23:55:49] <@Roya> this is the best conversation i've had on here
in.........well, possibly ever
 [23:55:51] <@Roya> i love this
 [23:55:53] <@Roya> keep going
 [23:55:55] <@marina> and what is rpm anyway??
 [23:55:56] * @Roya grins
 [23:55:59] * @george dances
 [23:56:05] * @marina tangoes with kat
 [23:56:07] * @Platypus smirks/grins
 [23:56:12] * @george grins
 [23:56:12] * @Roya intercepts marina
 [23:56:17] * @george laughs
 [23:56:18] <@Roya> ok platy
 [23:56:19] <@Zaphod> rpm.  technical answer: Redhat Package Manager.  non
technical answer:  ask platty
 [23:56:22] <@Roya> back to the geeking
 [23:56:26] * @Roya never thought she'd say that
 [23:56:27] * @marina grins at rael. exactly.
 [23:56:27] <@Box-Of-Rain> Program: a set of instructions, like the
"shampoo" program goes Rince then Lather, then Repeat untill hair shows no
signs of dirt, or you get board
 [23:56:32] * @Platypus finishes his happy little wiki story before getting
to rpm and programs, 'cause now he's emotionally invested in the characters
 [23:56:42] * @Roya giggles
 [23:56:47] <@george> my legs are cold!
 [23:56:49] * @marina chokes on her chocolate chips as she tries to laugh
quietly
 [23:56:49] <@george> whaaa
 [23:56:56] * @Zaphod grins at neal
 [23:57:06] <@Platypus> 19 (I think I'm on 19). the web server gets the
contents of the page from wiki and sends it on to netscape
 [23:57:09] * @Box-Of-Rain grins back
 [23:57:14] <@Ratio> I want some real poo!
 [23:57:25] <@Platypus> 20. netscape displays the page and you see wiki!
 [23:57:30] <@marina> and poof, there's wiki in all it's glory
 [23:57:32] <@Zaphod> YAY!
 [23:57:37] * @Zaphod grins
 [23:57:44] <@marina> platty, does that happen every single time you go to a
different wiki page though?
 [23:57:50] <@Roya> in 20 easy steps!
 [23:57:51] * @Jauss can't help[ but laugh at Ratio
 [23:57:53] <@Platypus> and there's actually a little more magic there,
'cause when I say wiki makes the hideous version pretty, it's not quiite
true..
 [23:58:05] <@Roya> you're LYING to us??
 [23:58:06] * @Roya gasps
 [23:58:07] <@Platypus> wiki takes the hideous (but simple) text version,
and translates into HTML
 [23:58:09] * @marina laughs...
 [23:58:19] <@marina> and then your client translates that into prettyness!
 [23:58:19] <@Box-Of-Rain> not Lying, Misleading :-)
 [23:58:24] <@Platypus> yes!
 [23:58:27] <@marina> hurrah!
 [23:58:41] <@Roya> ok
 [23:58:42] <@DYsknothere> What happens when you are already logged in but
you go to another page?
 [23:58:42] <@Roya> so
 [23:58:55] <@Box-Of-Rain> HTML: Hypertext Markup Langguge, I.e. the
instructions for Web Pages
 [23:59:00] * @marina nods at erek... i want to know that too
 [23:59:00] <@Platypus> so Ari wrote a program that takes our simple texty
stuff, and knowingly translates it into complex HTML stuff that will come
out as pretty stuff when it gets viewed by netscape
 [23:59:17] <@Roya> client asks server for wiki. server runs wiki (insert
password stuff here) client takes the raw material and makes it
aesthetically pleasing as per ari's programming?
 [23:59:18] <@marina> that. is very, very, cool.
 [23:59:26] *** Joins: PaperMoon
 [23:59:26] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o PaperMoon
 [23:59:32] <@Platypus> marina: yes, that happens every single time you hit
wiki.. it's rather astounding it all works so fast :)
 [23:59:32] <@Vicki> yellow!
 [23:59:36] <@marina> wow, yeah...
 [23:59:38] <@PaperMoon> woah, plenty of people here.
 [23:59:45] <@Platypus> Roya: yep
 [23:59:50] <@Jauss> greetings moon
 [23:59:51] <@marina> geez, i'm never going to complain about wiki being
slow again... well. not quite as much anyway.
 [23:59:54] * @Zaphod replaces netscape with:
netscape/IE/mozzila/kongeuror/lynx/opera/otehr web browser
 [00:00:00] <@Ratio> Is this on your Athlon 500, Platty, or...?
 [00:00:08] <@Zaphod> k6-2 350 right?
 [00:00:19] <@Platypus> when you're already logged in, netscape (or whatever
you're using, thanks zaphod :) remembers your password for you
 [00:00:23] <@Roya> so
 [00:00:27] <@Roya> when a page is running really slow
 [00:00:28] <@DYsknothere> The main bottleneck is the internet connection
unless you have a very slow computer.
 [00:00:32] <@marina> rael, you're SCARING me.
 [00:00:34] <@Roya> is that because.. the client and the server are having
problems communicating?
 [00:00:35] <@Platypus> so all the steps above happen every time, except for
the part where netscape asks you for your password
 [00:00:36] *** DYsknothere is now known as DYsk
 [00:00:40] <@Zaphod> marina: how?
 [00:00:45] <@Platypus> after the first time, netscape just sends your
password instead of pestering you
 [00:00:58] * @Ratio used to have a k6-2 350
 [00:01:01] <@marina> rael, all those letters and numbers... in the middle
of nowhere..
 [00:01:03] <@Vicki> Marina: Rael always scares me. I've gotten used to it
 [00:01:14] <@Platypus> Roya: yep.. 'net trouble is between the client and
the server.. one or the other is having some sort of problem getting
on-line
 [00:01:15] * @Roya agrees with marina
 [00:01:18] <@Roya> ..and with vic
 [00:01:23] <@Roya> ok
 [00:01:30] * @marina nods
 [00:01:33] <@Roya> so there's some sort of problem with passing the
information back and forth?
 [00:01:37] <@marina> oooo it all makes so much sense... wow.
 [00:01:42] <@Platypus> yeah
 [00:01:52] <@Platypus> often it's simply that one or the other is off-line
completely
 [00:01:57] <@Zaphod> marina: k6-2 350 is bassic info about a computer part.
 the k6-2 means it's made by AMD(a company) and they named it k6-2.  the 350
is how fast it is.
 [00:02:12] <@marina> ah! i understand... sort of......
 [00:02:15] <@marina> well enough anyways.
 [00:02:17] * @Roya tries to breathe..........
 [00:02:19] <@Platypus> heh, yeah, the "k6-2" part is just sort of a random
good number they came up with
 [00:02:28] <@marina> random. got it.
 [00:02:34] <@Vicki> ooh! I like random numbers!
 [00:02:39] * @Roya laughs
 [00:02:41] <@Platypus> because the old one was called a "k6", and they
figured everyone would know that "k6-2" was better than just "k6"
 [00:02:42] <@Ratio> Not entirely, they had K5s and K6s
 [00:02:42] <@Vicki> you can geek with random numbers
 [00:02:45] <@Ratio> yeah
 [00:02:49] <@DYsk> not entirely.  There used to be a K6
 [00:02:52] * @DYsk laughs
 [00:02:53] * @Roya blinks
 [00:02:54] <@Platypus> heh
 [00:02:58] <@Box-Of-Rain> K9s?
 [00:03:01] <@Zaphod> they have k7's now...
 [00:03:02] <@Roya> what's a K6 again?
 [00:03:03] * @marina giggles...
 [00:03:07] <@Platypus> K6 is a computer chip
 [00:03:09] <@Roya> what are all these numberssssssss?
 [00:03:17] <@marina> roya, it's a random number/name
 [00:03:20] * @Jauss grins
 [00:03:26] <@Ratio> Now they call them 'Athlon'
 [00:03:33] <@Roya> name for what?
 [00:03:33] <@Zaphod> yeah
 [00:03:41] <@Platypus> yeah.. see AMD (one chip company) wanted to compete
with Intel (another chip company)
 [00:03:43] <@Box-Of-Rain> Roya: All these numbers are they are symbols used
to represent quantities
 [00:03:43] <@Zaphod> a computer chip, makes everything happen right
 [00:03:48] <@Ratio> It's a CPU, or Centeral Processing Unit.
 [00:03:51] <@Platypus> and intel was selling "586" chips
 [00:03:56] <@Roya> oh dear
 [00:03:58] <@Zaphod> joey: TECHNICAL ANSWER
 [00:04:03] <@Ratio> lol
 [00:04:09] <@Platypus> and AMD decided they wanted a name that sounded
technical, but was obviously better than "586"
 [00:04:11] <@Ratio> Okay, it's the brains of the operation.
 [00:04:11] <@DYsk> Intel was selling 586?
 [00:04:16] <@Zaphod> yes
 [00:04:18] <@Platypus> er, 486
 [00:04:22] <@Platypus> damnit, I'm confusing myself
 [00:04:22] <@Platypus> sorry
 [00:04:23] <@Vicki> hey zapy: I got a new 34Pd Raw Intel upgrade for my
graphics card....
 [00:04:25] <@Zaphod> tehy had 686 for a little while
 [00:04:26] * @Roya starts mumbling stuff about bentonite and flux and
refractors
 [00:04:33] <@Platypus> okay, Intel had "486"
 [00:04:35] <@Vicki> (random number = fake geeking!)
 [00:04:45] * @marina giggles
 [00:04:50] <@Zaphod> 486 is actually 80486 right?
 [00:04:57] <@DYsk> Yes
 [00:04:58] <@Zaphod> (sorry for the side question)
 [00:05:08] <@Platypus> AMD wants you to know their chip is better.. 6 is
more than 4, so they make the "K6"
 [00:05:10] <@DYsk> 686 was made by cyrix if I remember right.  Same with
the 586.
 [00:05:10] <@marina> the *ahem* confusing side question...
 [00:05:23] <@PaperMoon> and cyrix died!
 [00:05:28] <@Platypus> it's like of Joey started calling himself "Joey 2",
and I wanted to one-up him, so I became "3Nick"
 [00:05:29] <@Box-Of-Rain> (Random number actually = predictable nu,ber
based on the nukmber of nanoseconds since Jan 1st 1970)
 [00:05:29] <@Ratio> Vicki:  did it have a 99ii LLV unit, or TAM's mo88-x?
 [00:05:37] <@PaperMoon> my sister has a cyrix 233mhz
 [00:05:40] <@marina> so... it's all compltely random and silly
 [00:05:44] <@marina> OK, YOU'RE ALL SCARING ME NOW
 [00:05:47] <@Platypus> marina: yes, essentially
 [00:05:52] <@Zaphod> joey: what the hell does that mean?
 [00:05:53] * @Roya reverts to gibberish ceramics talk
 [00:05:54] <@Vicki> Joey: the TAM of course!
 [00:05:56] * @DYsk has a cyrix 166.
 [00:06:00] * @Ratio grins at Vic
 [00:06:02] <@Platypus> in this case, geeking becomes something it's usually
not.. memorization
 [00:06:09] <@PaperMoon> it's not random. it's arbitrariy. there is a
difference.
 [00:06:10] <@marina> TAM...? thoughts after midnight...?
 [00:06:10] * @Vicki grins back
 [00:06:18] <@Platypus> and it becomes cool to remember all the names for
all the chips..
 [00:06:19] * @marina nods at papermoon. ok.
 [00:06:19] <@Ratio> Exactly, Marina!
 [00:06:20] <@george> hehehe
 [00:06:29] <@george> you guys are funny
 [00:06:29] <@Platypus> and I can see how that could get quite annoying and
hereby apologize ;)
 [00:06:29] <@DYsk> Roya:  What are the different hardnesses of clay called
and how are they differently used?
 [00:06:33] <@Roya> ok
 [00:06:35] <@Roya> hey
 [00:06:45] <@marina> not now please...
 [00:06:53] <@marina> thank you, platty :)
 [00:07:02] <@marina> are we done with wiki, or is there more?
 [00:07:08] <@Roya> well the hardnesses don't matter at all, really. it's
just per batch, how much water you put in the clay. what matters is the
tempeture it "matures" at
 [00:07:12] <@marina> are we on to IRC now?
 [00:07:14] <@Zaphod> (I think wiki is done)
 [00:07:18] <@Roya> the hardnesses of plaster does matter, however
 [00:07:21] <@DYsk> Interesting.
 [00:07:21] <@PaperMoon> ooooh what about wiki? 
 [00:07:26] <@PaperMoon> nm, I missed it.
 [00:07:33] <@PaperMoon> what about irc?
 [00:07:41] <@marina> this whole conversation really should get posted
somewhere at some point...
 [00:07:42] <@Zaphod> platty is explaining servers to us
 [00:07:43] <@Box-Of-Rain> PaperMoon: I'll send you a log file, sometime in
the near-ish future
 [00:08:06] <@DYsk> sorry, what exactly is the difference between clay and
plaster?  I have my own working definition but I just realized I don't
really know.
 [00:08:08] <@Platypus> Roya: how late are you planning on being awake? I
want a full blown ceramics rant!
 [00:08:13] <@Box-Of-Rain> Platty: May I please take a stab at explaining
IRC?
 [00:08:38] <@Platypus> Box-Of-Rain: heh, you really don't have to ask me..
I'll shut up and let you do it.. but I want to answer another one of
marina's questions first
 [00:08:38] <@Roya> uhm..... probably .. maybe.. another hour
 [00:08:39] * @Ryland has a cyrix computer..
 [00:08:46] * @DYsk laughs at the dualing conversations
 [00:08:46] <@Roya> i'm going to a musuem tomorrow morning, yay!
 [00:08:51] <@Box-Of-Rain> Okay
 [00:08:53] <@DYsk> Nice!
 [00:09:03] * @Roya wonders if there will be more geeking lessons or if the
conversation is now free for the dominating?
 [00:09:16] <@Platypus> um.. just a little more geeking?
 [00:09:24] <@PaperMoon> well, I want to know about irc.
 [00:09:26] <@marina> more geeking!!! must! have! mooooore!
 [00:09:29] * @marina grins...
 [00:09:32] <@Box-Of-Rain> I'm gonna explain IRC, if you want me to...
 [00:09:37] <@Roya> alrighty
 [00:09:37] <@marina> i would like to hear!
 [00:09:40] <@Roya> the tribe has spoken
 [00:09:40] <@Zaphod> me too
 [00:09:41] * @Josh is off t bed
 [00:09:41] <@Platypus> er, computer geeking.. unless you get offended, I'm
gonna call what you do "ceramics geeking" ;)
 [00:09:43] * @Roya grins
 [00:09:45] <@Josh> good night yall's
 [00:09:50] * @marina hugs josh
 [00:09:53] <@Vicki> does irc invole things blowing up?
 [00:09:55] <@DYsk> Night Josh
 [00:09:57] <@Roya> it's the same thing platy, i don't mind at all :)
 [00:10:00] * @Josh hands out hugs, liberaly
 [00:10:01] <@Zaphod> sometimes yes victor
 [00:10:02] <@Platypus> okay, quickly, before IRC>.
 [00:10:12] <@Vicki> Zapy: oh! cool!
 [00:10:14] * @Vicki grins
 [00:10:15] <@Box-Of-Rain> you are welcome to geek about ceramics in another
channel 
 [00:10:18] * @Vicki hugs Josh
 [00:10:23] *** Quits: Josh (Quit: Sleep well everyone, good work, I'll most
likely kill you in the morning)
 [00:10:28] * @Zaphod hovers waiting to hear platty's talk
 [00:10:35] <@Platypus> marina pointed out that there are other "servers"
involved in getting your web client and the web server to talk
 [00:10:44] <@Zaphod> ooooh
 [00:10:46] <@Zaphod> neetoness
 [00:10:50] <@Roya> (ooh platty. you're right. it hurts. and i was
advocating it ;o))
 [00:11:00] <@Platypus> (heh.. sorry)
 [00:11:02] <@Box-Of-Rain> (sorry)_
 [00:11:24] <@PaperMoon> routers or or what?
 [00:11:46] <@Platypus> lots of stuff.. sorry, got side tracked for a sec
 [00:12:00] <@Platypus> at the basic level, every computer needs some way of
being on the net
 [00:12:09] <@Ryland> good night everyone, I am goign to bed, dispite how
much I am enjoying haveing my brain fed\
 [00:12:17] <@Platypus> 'cause the web client and the web server can't talk
to eachother if they're not both on the network
 [00:12:21] <@Vicki> night Ryland!
 [00:12:32] *** Ryland changes topic to 'knolage, it's good for the brain'
 [00:12:33] * @Platypus waves to Ryland (which is awkward, since he's still
on his lap)
 [00:12:40] <@marina> the network itself is completely confusing to me...
but i think that is likely a whole different conversation
 [00:12:43] <@Roya> night ry
 [00:12:47] * @Roya laughs
 [00:12:51] <@Zaphod> night ry
 [00:12:56] <@marina> gnight ry
 [00:13:00] <@Platypus> marina: ask me (or another geek) some other time..
actually, Ari would be a good one to answer that
 [00:13:04] <@PaperMoon> night Rylkand
 [00:13:04] <@Platypus> (but I wanna be there when he does)
 [00:13:05] <@marina> i will!
 [00:13:10] * @Ryland likes the "the internet is like a street map" anolgey
 [00:13:28] <@marina> i just don't see how things all connect and
communicate... but anyways. servers.
 [00:13:28] <@Platypus> anyway, you all have some company or entity that
provides you with a connection of some sort..
 [00:13:46] <@Ryland> "there is more then one way to get from point "A" to
point"B"
 [00:13:52] <@Zaphod> hey can I try taking a stab at how something gets from
one computer to the next?
 [00:14:01] <@Platypus> Zaphod: go for it
 [00:14:08] * @Ryland sets him self on fire, and burns up, disapearing
 [00:14:10] <@Jauss> g'niht Ry
 [00:14:12] <@Zaphod> I'm not sure exactly on this butttt....
 [00:14:13] <@Platypus> ouch..
 [00:14:27] <@Vicki> night pile of ashes that was Ryland
 [00:14:30] *** Parts: Ryland (stop fallowing me!)
 [00:14:40] <@Roya> that seems selfdefeating
 [00:14:41] <@Box-Of-Rain> Okay, I have five mineuts left, so I'm just gonna
do my quick little IRDC rant, then get offline...
 [00:14:43] <@Roya> uh oh he was talking to me
 [00:14:54] <@Platypus> okay.. zaphod, can you wait for neal to do IRC?
 [00:15:08] <@Zaphod> yeah
 [00:15:45] <@Zaphod> (I'm really much better at explaining things 1 to 1
than talking to a big group, but I'll try my best once neals done)
 [00:15:50] * @marina logs on to wiki and is blown away by all her new
knowledge. wow this is cool.
 [00:15:59] * @Zaphod grins and marina
 [00:16:05] * @Platypus grins at marina.. thinking about it all sort of
keeps me in perpetual awe..
 [00:16:08] <@marina> yeah.
 [00:16:18] <@Platypus> (and now you see why we talk about this stuff so
damn much ;)
 [00:16:24] <@Box-Of-Rain> the IRC Server is a bit like a telephone operator
(ask your parents about that) it takes what you say, and says it to everyone
else, and takes what everyone else says and sends it to you, like a Party
line, execpt you can only hear one person relaying everyone elses words.  
 [00:16:51] * @Platypus grins.. good analogy
 [00:17:01] * @marina frowns and nods...
 [00:17:06] <@marina> i think i sort of get it...
 [00:17:41] <@Platypus> the main difference between the IRC server program
and the web server program is that with IRC, your client and the server stay
connected..
 [00:17:47] <@marina> ah!
 [00:17:52] <@Roya> ah!
 [00:17:55] * @Roya grins at marina
 [00:17:57] * @marina grins...
 [00:17:58] <@Zaphod> ah!
 [00:18:00] * @Zaphod grins
 [00:18:01] <@Jauss> ah!
 [00:18:05] <@Zaphod> ahhhhhhhh!
 [00:18:05] * @marina laughs!
 [00:18:07] <@Platypus> so you don't have to request new text like you have
to request a new page.. as neal said, the IRC server can just send the new
stuff to you as it appears
 [00:18:08] <@Box-Of-Rain> so I send the word "Hello" to the IRC Server,
says "Neal says Hello" to everyone.  the /query command, basically is like
asking the operator to connect you to 985-3751
 [00:18:20] <@marina> thank you neal, that makes sense!
 [00:18:28] <@Box-Of-Rain> you are welcome
 [00:18:39] <@marina> wheee! wow. good stuff.
 [00:18:48] <@PaperMoon> I don't get it!
 [00:18:52] * @PaperMoon grins.
 [00:18:56] * @Zaphod fiffles
 [00:18:59] <@Platypus> there's a geek term for that staying connected or
not staying connected.. "state"
 [00:19:09] <@PaperMoon> really?
 [00:19:12] <@Platypus> we call the web stuff "stateless"
 [00:19:13] <@marina> would you use that in a sentance...?
 [00:19:13] <@Box-Of-Rain> there are other aspects to an IRC serever, like
Nick, ChanServ, any Bots that are connected, etc, but 've gotta go, so I'll
let someone else exolain that.
 [00:19:13] <@Zaphod> I didn't know that
 [00:19:24] <@PaperMoon> ahha!
 [00:19:25] * @Platypus waves to Box-Of-Rain.. g'night! :)
 [00:19:29] <@Ratio> Nor did I.
 [00:19:29] <@PaperMoon> I didn't know that.
 [00:19:31] <@marina> night neal!
 [00:19:32] <@Ratio> G'night, Neal.
 [00:19:43] * @DYsk waves
 [00:19:46] <@Platypus> by stateless, I mean that the web server has no
memory of anything that's come before, and no concept of what will come
later
 [00:19:47] <@Zaphod> night neal
 [00:20:00] <@Platypus> it sort of "lives for the moment".. starts fresh
every time something happens to it
 [00:20:05] <@Box-Of-Rain> Night all, please send me logs, if any more
interesting, explinations occour!
 [00:20:27] <@Roya> night neal!
 [00:20:28] <@Jauss> dai Neal
 [00:20:29] <@Platypus> whereas IRC has state.. the IRC server has a
"memory" that you've been connected for so long, that you have ops or don't
have ops, that you are in this channel or that, etc
 [00:20:38] * @marina nods...
 [00:20:45] <@marina> right, got it
 [00:20:48] <@Platypus> "state" as in "I was in a sleep deprived state"
 [00:20:52] <@marina> aha!
 [00:20:54] * @marina giggles
 [00:20:57] *** Quits: Box-Of-Rain (Quit: Picture a bunch of UNIX Users,
dancing around the file, chanting "Sudo, Sudo, Sudo", they are summoning
they're god!)
 [00:20:57] <@Platypus> or "you are in a being in #nbtsc and having ops
state"
 [00:20:59] <@PaperMoon> anything that requires you to send packets that
then change what the server is doing or does has state? I.E. games, telnet
 [00:21:09] *** Retrieving #nbtsc info...
 [00:21:17] *** marina changes topic to 'In the State of Connectedness!'
 [00:21:23] <@Zaphod> hehe
 [00:21:28] <@Platypus> PaperMoon: anything that remembers what "state"
things are in from one interaction to the next.. and yeah, having state
implies the state can be changed :)
 [00:21:39] <@marina> hm...
 [00:22:04] <@Dawn> goodnight everyone!!!!!
 [00:22:08] * @Platypus waves to Dawn
 [00:22:09] * @Dawn is going to BED!
 [00:22:10] <@Zaphod> night dawn!
 [00:22:11] * @marina hugs dawn
 [00:22:18] <@Roya> night dawn!
 [00:22:29] <@Dawn> love you all to pieces!
 [00:22:34] * @marina smiles
 [00:22:39] <@Vicki> night night!
 [00:22:43] * @Vicki hugs good night
 [00:22:44] <@Jauss> blessed be
 [00:22:51] <@Dawn> Blessed be
 [00:22:52] *** Quits: Dawn (Quit: )
 [00:23:05] <@PaperMoon> night
 [00:23:09] <@PaperMoon> oops
 [00:23:21] <@marina> so is that irc...?
 [00:23:23] <@marina> is there more?
 [00:23:27] * @Zaphod feels like explaining binary coded decimal but knows
that would be a bad thing to try
 [00:23:30] <@Platypus> that's the gist of it
 [00:23:32] * @Jauss grins. ah, 3am computer class
 [00:23:40] <@PaperMoon> best time for it.
 [00:23:44] * @marina grins at kim. absolutely.
 [00:23:44] <@Zaphod> heheh
 [00:23:49] <@Vicki> 3 am? weird time zones
 [00:23:54] * @Jauss grins
 [00:23:56] <@Zaphod> 8:20 am!
 [00:23:57] <@george> goodnight ya'll
 [00:24:00] <@Platypus> Zaphod: wanna do the "how stuff gets from one
computer to another"?
 [00:24:08] <@Zaphod> platty: I'll try
 [00:24:41] <@Zaphod> okay every one.  gather round for the next round of
watch zapy fail to explain something!
 [00:24:48] * @marina grins and gets out her popcorn
 [00:24:49] * @Roya gathers
 [00:24:53] * @Zaphod grins
 [00:25:03] <@PaperMoon> ooh can I do um.... something really simple?
 [00:25:04] <@Vicki> ooh! I want popcorn!
 [00:25:09] * @PaperMoon listens
 [00:25:09] <@Platypus> Zaphod: you shoulda seen my first day of tech
support.. man, I tell ya.. I'm so glad none of those people knew who I
was..
 [00:25:13] * @marina hands vic some popcorn
 [00:25:21] * @marina laughs...
 [00:25:30] <@Zaphod> okay...
 [00:25:34] <@Zaphod> *thinks*
 [00:25:41] <@Zaphod> *gets idea*
 [00:26:29] <@Vicki> yay!
 [00:26:33] * @Vicki eats the popcorn
 [00:26:44] <@Zaphod> oaky, when your computer wants to talk to a serevr, it
needs to know where that server is.  It knows where 1 or 2 servers are, tehy
act like phone books basicaly.
 [00:26:57] <@Roya> brb
 [00:27:05] *** Roya is now known as DontBeInterestingForAMinute
 [00:27:12] * @Zaphod pauses
 [00:27:32] * @marina grins
 [00:27:57] *** DontBeInterestingForAMinute is now known as Roya
 [00:28:01] <@Roya> okay
 [00:28:04] <@Roya> sorry
 [00:28:05] * @Roya grins
 [00:28:07] <@Ratio> lol
 [00:29:02] <@Zaphod> your computer says to them "hey, wheres nbstc.org?"
basicaly, and the server(techy name: DNS server) says back "nbtsc.org is at:
64.255.211.149" (thats the actuall number it gives you for nbtsc.org)
 [00:29:46] <@marina> but how is the actual connection made...?
 [00:29:57] * @Platypus interjects briefly to point out that at the scary
technical level, all computers on the network have one of those number
addresses.. that's how they know eachother.. the "blah.com" or "nbtsc.org"
stuff rests on top of that to life easier for us humans
 [00:30:07] * @marina nods
 [00:30:31] <@Zaphod> once your computer has that number it passes it off to
the nearest availible computer saying "Hey give this to 64.255.211.149" then
that one takes it and says to the next "hey give this to 64.255.211.149" and
so on until it gets to 64.255.211.149(which is nbtsc.org)
 [00:30:34] * @Roya likes it when life's made easier like that
 [00:30:47] <@Zaphod> (I got it right right platty?
 [00:30:48] <@marina> the nearest available computer, or nearest 
server...?
 [00:30:54] <@Zaphod> server
 [00:30:54] <@Platypus> (yeah :)
 [00:31:02] <@marina> and i'm still confused about how the first  connection
is made
 [00:31:11] <@Zaphod> your computer has a SMALL list
 [00:31:14] <@Zaphod> of servers
 [00:31:16] <@Roya> so it's.. like..... some kind of game of catch,  orhot
potatoe or something
 [00:31:18] <@Zaphod> usualy only like 2
 [00:31:21] <@marina> that it's always connceted to?
 [00:31:22] <@Roya> just passing it off to the closest thing till it  gets
the right one?
 [00:31:26] <@Roya> or didi miss a big chunk
 [00:31:33] <@Zaphod> now, it only connects to get an adress of another
computer
 [00:31:41] <@marina> huh...
 [00:31:46] <@Zaphod> Roya: yeah thats about right
 [00:31:46] <@DYsk> Okay, now that it has the IP address what does it do
with it?
 [00:31:59] <@marina> so... if you're online... then what are you connected
to??
 [00:32:09] <@marina> whatever server you're getting a particular webpage
from?
 [00:32:11] <@marina> and that's it?
 [00:32:13] <@Zaphod> ummmm....  plattty... help please
 [00:32:20] * @Zaphod grins
 [00:32:58] <@DYsk> Marina:  I think you are refering to your internet
service provider?
 [00:33:22] * @Platypus expands on what zaphod said..
 [00:33:40] <@Platypus> as he says, there are servers that act like phone
books..
 [00:33:41] * @Vicki notes the geeks out number the non geeks and giggles
 [00:34:14] <@marina> yeah... that, erek.
 [00:34:19] <@marina> isn't htat a server...?
 [00:34:23] <@Platypus> when you first sign up with an internet provider,
they give you one or two number addresses (we call them IP addresses.. IP
stands for Internet Protocol)
 [00:34:35] <@marina> or does the ISP connect you to your phonebook
server...?
 [00:34:43] <@Platypus> your ISP conncets you..
 [00:34:49] <@marina> got it. i think.
 [00:34:57] <@Platypus> see, to talk to any other computer on the network,
your computer needs to know the IP address for that computer
 [00:35:06] <@PaperMoon> but does the isp own the dns servers?
 [00:35:09] <@Platypus> but it would be a serious hassle if you always had
to type in IP addresses
 [00:35:13] <@marina> so the ISP connects you to one server, which hands you
off from server to server until you get where you're going?
 [00:35:21] <@Zaphod> yeah
 [00:35:22] <@Platypus> yeah.. justa sec, I'll get to that :)
 [00:35:25] * @marina grins
 [00:35:27] <@Zaphod> heheh
 [00:35:48] <@Platypus> so instead of making you memorize the IP address for
sever computer you want to talk to, your ISP has you (or rather your
computer) remember one or two
 [00:35:56] * @marina nods
 [00:36:13] <@Platypus> sometimes they have you type them in yourself (you
or someone at your house probably had to do this when you first signed up)..
sometimes they provide software that does it for you
 [00:36:22] <@marina> right. i think i know what you mean.
 [00:36:45] <@Platypus> those two numbers are the number addresses for your
ISP's DNS servers.. essentiatelly, the "phone  books" that your ISP
provides
 [00:37:22] <@Platypus> so everytime you go to an address like nbtsc.org,
your computer first goes to one of those DNS servers and says "hey, what's
the IP address for nbtsc.org"
 [00:37:44] <@Platypus> so ever time you make one connection on-line, you're
actually making two.. one first to the DNS server, and then another to the
actual server you want
 [00:37:48] <@marina> what does DNS stand for?
 [00:37:54] <@Zaphod> Dynamic Name Server
 [00:38:01] <@marina> so, a phone book...
 [00:38:02] <@Ratio> domain name service?
 [00:38:05] <@DYsk> Domain Name service
 [00:38:09] <@Platypus> heh, one of those
 [00:38:12] <@marina> ok!
 [00:38:13] <@Zaphod> I thought it was dynamic name server.
 [00:38:27] <@Zaphod> but whatever
 [00:38:48] <@Ratio> More than two connections though, what about all the
hops?
 [00:39:02] <@marina> but you don't stay connected to all the hops
 [00:39:02] <@Zaphod> those arn't connections from you are they?
 [00:39:03] <@Platypus> Ratio: yeah, but your computer doesn't really make
those.. 
 [00:39:06] <@Ratio> True..
 [00:39:10] <@marina> you just... hop
 [00:39:14] <@Ratio> Hot potato!
 [00:39:17] <@Platypus> hmm..
 [00:39:31] <@Platypus> I still want to hear a ceramics rant, but I could
also rant a little more about that hop thing..
 [00:39:37] <@Zaphod> and "it doesn't always take the shortest, or fastest
ruote"
 [00:39:50] <@marina> i want to hear about that... what's that all about
rael?
 [00:39:51] <@Zaphod> s/ruote/route
 [00:40:11] <@Zaphod> the hops aren't always the fastest, sometimes it takes
a slower path
 [00:40:22] <@marina> why?
 [00:40:37] <@Zaphod> because non of them really know the fastest way
 [00:40:41] <@Zaphod> and it's always changing
 [00:40:44] <@Platypus> redundency :)
 [00:40:52] <@marina> ah... ok... i think.
 [00:41:09] <@Platypus> the internet was originally partly a military
project.. designed to stay up even if large portions of it were destroyed 
 [00:41:11] * @Jauss grins
 [00:41:20] <@marina> good stuff, that...
 [00:41:29] <@marina> does it make it slower?
 [00:41:29] <@Platypus> which is why it works at all now, despite a major
lack of central organization
 [00:41:33] * @marina grins
 [00:41:38] <@Platypus> yes, very much so
 [00:41:40] <@marina> lack of central organization is good too!
 [00:41:42] <@Platypus> but it's a worthwhile trade-off
 [00:41:44] <@marina> wow... i get it! that's cool...
 [00:41:55] <@Zaphod> okay quick geeky question:  whats the command to trace
the hops in linux?
 [00:41:55] <@marina> wow. yeah.
 [00:41:57] <@Platypus> we could make it a lot faster, but it'd be nearly
impossible to keep it working
 [00:42:06] <@marina> heh, yeah...
 [00:42:08] <@Jauss> heh
 [00:42:09] <@Platypus> Zaphod: traceroute.. you might need to install that,
I'm not sure it's default with mandarke
 [00:42:16] <@Zaphod> nope
 [00:42:17] <@PaperMoon> it's not
 [00:42:18] <@Zaphod> heheh
 [00:42:21] <@Ratio> Darke!
 [00:42:25] * @Ratio fiffles
 [00:42:34] <@Zaphod> damn, disks are in the living room and i'm "asleep
 [00:42:35] <@Zaphod> "
 [00:42:42] <@Ratio> haha
 [00:42:48] <@Jauss> heh
 [00:42:49] <@Ratio> Download it from mandrake.com
 [00:42:54] <@Ratio> or mandrake.fr?
 [00:42:55] <@Zaphod> mmkay
 [00:42:59] <@Zaphod> fr?
 [00:43:06] <@Ratio> France.
 [00:43:08] <@Zaphod> it's actually linux-mandrake.org...
 [00:43:15] <@Ratio> Hrm, interesting..
 [00:43:18] <@Platypus> heh
 [00:43:45] <@Zaphod> you actually get rerouted twice for going to
mandrake.com
 [00:43:57] <@Zaphod> first to linux-mandrake.org.  then to
linux-mandrake.org/en
 [00:44:03] <@Ratio> lol
 [00:44:29] * @Platypus wonders if Roya is still around to do the ceramics
thing
 [00:45:08] <@PaperMoon> Roya?
 [00:45:09] <@Zaphod> PHP ERRORS ON LINUX-MANDRAKE.ORG!!!!
 [00:45:26] <@Roya> oops
 [00:45:26] <@Roya> you caught me
 [00:45:29] * @Roya grins
 [00:45:32] * @Vicki gigglges!
 [00:45:36] <@PaperMoon> alright, lets sign up to do rants. Who's next?
 [00:45:42] * @Roya feels like a kid in school who got caught the second she
fell asleep
 [00:45:44] <@Roya> i'll do ceramics now
 [00:45:46] <@Roya> if you want me to
 [00:45:52] * @marina wants you to
 [00:45:58] * @marina would like to understand ceramics...
 [00:46:04] <@Roya> ok
 [00:46:07] <@Roya> start me off with a question
 [00:46:08] <@Roya> :)
 [00:46:16] <@Platypus> what's up with that ceramics stuff, anyway?
 [00:46:18] * @Zaphod is now going to bug platty to death about his
soundcard
 [00:46:21] * @marina laughs
 [00:46:26] <@Zaphod> unless platty would liek it to wait
 [00:46:44] <@Roya> Well, ceramics is basically anything to do with clay
 [00:46:54] <@marina> define clay :)
 [00:46:56] <@Platypus> Zaphod: go for it, but I'm gonna pay more attention
to this window ;)
 [00:47:02] <@Roya> do you want all the chemical parts?
 [00:47:12] <@PaperMoon> ok, what is ceramic?
 [00:47:21] <@marina> what makes clay clay and not plaster or dirt or...
anything else?
 [00:47:25] <@PaperMoon> yeah, the chemical parts
 [00:47:29] <@Roya> plaster is a type of clay
 [00:47:33] <@Roya> and there is "dirt" in clay
 [00:47:38] <@Roya> the dirt part that's in clay is called Alumina
 [00:47:43] <@Roya> which is the most prevalent material on earth
 [00:47:49] <@Roya> it's a refractor, which means it inhibits melting
 [00:48:01] <@Roya> it's also a part of glazes. which i'll get to later.
 [00:48:31] <@Roya> clay also has sand, and water. the amount of sand in it
determines how well it stands up. the water makes it "plastic" (the term for
how.. squishy it gets)
 [00:48:40] <@Roya> some clay's don't have sand
 [00:48:42] <@Roya> that's porcelain
 [00:48:47] <@Jauss> ah
 [00:48:55] <@marina> how non-brittle?
 [00:49:01] <@Roya> Plaster differs from Clay because plaster 'sets'
(airdries) and doesn't get fired.
 [00:49:11] <@marina> wait... you're going a bit fast for me...
 [00:49:17] <@Roya> (firing happens in a kiln, , at very extreme
temperatures)
 [00:49:17] <@Roya> ok
 [00:49:18] <@Roya> sorry
 [00:49:20] *** Quits: Vicki (Quit: )
 [00:49:25] <@PaperMoon> and what about industrial cermics...um.. not
industrial. Like, I can buy cermic bearings for my skates
 [00:49:28] <@Roya> stop me if i do that.
 [00:49:28] <@Roya> what part?
 [00:49:43] <@Platypus> is that a property of plaster, or does it just make
any clay "plaster" if you use it but don't fire it?
 [00:49:54] <@Roya> nope, plaster also has different chemical makeups
 [00:49:57] <@Roya> plaster has a lot more water
 [00:50:03] <@Roya> it's liquid, you pour it and then let it set
 [00:50:03] * @marina nods...
 [00:50:07] *** Joins: Vicki
 [00:50:09] *** Zaphod sets mode: +o Vicki
 [00:50:13] <@DYsk> hi victor
 [00:50:14] <@Vicki> wrong button!
 [00:50:17] <@marina> heh
 [00:50:17] <@Zaphod> heh
 [00:50:19] <@marina> hate that
 [00:50:19] <@Roya> clay also has something known as "fire clay" which is
what lets it be fired to such extreme temps
 [00:50:25] <@Vicki> but I'm goona to anyways
 [00:50:28] <@Vicki> night night all!
 [00:50:29] <@marina> and what's fire clay?
 [00:50:30] <@Roya> night vic!
 [00:50:33] <@Zaphod> night vic!
 [00:50:50] <@Roya> clay has to be fired to "mature." it will break,  crack,
get brittle if you don't
 [00:50:54] * @Vicki hugs all
 [00:50:58] * @Jauss hugs
 [00:51:02] <@PaperMoon> night
 [00:51:05] <@marina> gnight vic
 [00:51:16] <@marina> what does the firing change about the clay?
 [00:51:18] <@Platypus> so what happens when you fire it that gives  it that
strength?
 [00:51:18] <@Roya> clay is usually fired twice
 [00:51:23] <@Platypus> yeah, what marina said
 [00:51:30] <@Roya> the first time it goes through something called
Vintrification, or Sillica Inversion
 [00:51:35] <@Roya> it releases 29 chemicals
 [00:51:41] <@marina> releases...?
 [00:51:42] <@Roya> (i can't remember all of them though :P)
 [00:51:48] <@Roya> yeah. it changes the water in teh clay to a chemical
 [00:51:52] * @marina says ack, must learn basic chemistry.
 [00:51:54] <@Roya> which is what makes the clay shrink
 [00:51:58] <@marina> oooooh!
 [00:52:00] <@marina> cool.
 [00:52:00] <@Roya> and it makes the molecules bond
 [00:52:04] <@marina> cool!
 [00:52:07] <@Roya> it's like...linking fingers when you hold hands
 [00:52:13] <@Zaphod> coo
 [00:52:19] <@Platypus> ah-so!
 [00:52:21] <@Roya> that's what happens around 1100 degrees farenheit
 [00:52:23] <@DYsk> vitrification or vintrification?
 [00:52:27] <@Roya> the latter
 [00:52:32] * @DYsk nods
 [00:52:36] *** Quits: Vicki (Quit: woh, this conversation just got
complicated... g)
 [00:52:45] * @Roya laughs at vic
 [00:52:55] <@Roya> when it comes out of the first firing, the clay is now
called "bisque"
 [00:52:59] * @marina laughs... the computer geeking didn't scare him away,
but ceramic geeking? woah... ;)
 [00:53:02] <@Roya> and it's ready to be glazed
 [00:53:13] * @Platypus looks a little bemused by the fact that removing
water would make something less brittle..
 [00:53:13] <@Roya> so let me go through steps, like platy did :)
 [00:53:15] <@marina> why can't it be glazed before?
 [00:53:31] <@marina> cause it makes the molecules bond, i'm  guessing,
platty
 [00:53:44] <@Roya> because it didn't release the chemicals, and would make
pockmarks in teh glaze. it wouldn't be strong because the molecules haven't
bonded, like marina said
 [00:54:01] <@marina> ah... ok...
 [00:54:08] <@Roya> 1)choose your clay, based on how hot you're firing to,
what you're doing with it, and the color.
 [00:54:18] <@Roya> 2)either throw it on the wheel, or handbuild with it
 [00:54:42] <@marina> wait!
 [00:54:44] <@marina> hold on!
 [00:54:51] <@Roya> 3)bisque it. the bisque goes to 1863 degrees farenheit.
that's when the 29 chemicals are released, and it goes through sillican
inversion/vintrification
 [00:54:55] <@Roya> yeah?
 [00:54:58] * @Platypus interrupts the steps with a question, which can be
answered after the steps are done.. pock marks.. like you'd get bubbles in
the glaze from escaping gas?
 [00:54:59] <@marina> how do you choose what temperature you want? and what
you do with it?
 [00:55:18] <@Roya> exactly platy
 [00:55:22] <@marina> and what difference do different types of clay make to
that?
 [00:55:24] <@Jauss> ditto marina!
 [00:55:37] <@Roya> well all clay goes to bisque first
 [00:55:40] <@DYsk> goodnight
 [00:55:41] <@Roya> then the tempeture........
 [00:55:42] *** Quits: DYsk (Quit: )
 [00:55:43] <@Roya> ah let me back up
 [00:55:51] <@marina> thank you
 [00:56:04] <@Roya> ok. we measure temperture by "cones." cones are  put in
the kiln and physically melt when it reaches a certain temp
 [00:56:12] <@marina> what are cones made of?
 [00:56:16] <@Roya> i'll explain that later
 [00:56:18] <@Platypus> give us more insanely detailed steps.. like "2. you
choose clay type 361 because today you're making a sproinkle, and clay 361
is good for sproinlkes 'cause.."
 [00:56:24] <@Roya> you have to know about glaze to know what cones are made
of
 [00:56:29] <@marina> insane details, yes please.
 [00:56:41] <@marina> can you tell us what cones are related to?
 [00:56:50] <@Roya> ok. cones have glass in them, which is the melting
agent
 [00:56:54] <@Roya> i'll detail that later
 [00:56:55] <@marina> oh, ok...
 [00:56:58] <@Roya> cones are numbered
 [00:57:05] <@Roya> for example, bisque is cone 06
 [00:57:21] <@Roya> it goes from 06 to 01, to 1, and then to 10
 [00:57:23] <@marina> what do all the different temperatures mean? i mean...
what do they do?
 [00:57:25] <@Roya> 10 being the hottest temp
 [00:57:28] <@Roya> they are hotter
 [00:57:46] <@Roya> which means
 [00:57:55] <@Roya> some clay bodies are produced to mature at a certain
temperture
 [00:58:11] <@Roya> if i put a cone 5 clay body in a cone 10 kiln, the clay
body would break down, and it would be a disaster
 [00:58:15] <@Roya> because it would get too hot for it
 [00:58:17] <@Platypus> do the different temperatures 'cause different
chemicals to be released, or just different amounts of the same chemicals?
 [00:58:17] <@marina> what's the difference between one clay that matures at
one temperature and another that matures at a different temp?
 [00:58:24] <@Roya> amounts, platty
 [00:58:42] <@marina> i mean......
 [00:58:49] * @marina isn't sure she's phrasing her qustion right
 [00:59:10] <@Platypus> ah.. so the temp/clay combination you pick is a
function of how much of those chemicals that clay has, and what consistency
of release you want..?
 [00:59:25] <@Roya> well it really matters more when you get to the glazing
steps
 [00:59:36] <@Roya> because glazes are what are really affected by which
cone you pick
 [00:59:50] <@Roya> with the clay's they aren't so different. they just
break down at different tempertures
 [01:00:01] <@Roya> you pick the clay based on what cone you're going to,
which is based on what glazes you are going to use.
 [01:00:11] <@marina> aaaaahhhh.
 [01:00:11] <@marina> ok.
 [01:00:31] <@Roya> ok i'm going to start the steps over using insane
details
 [01:00:32] * @Roya grins
 [01:00:35] <@marina> oh good
 [01:00:36] * @marina grins...
 [01:00:37] <@Zaphod> brb
 [01:00:39] *** Quits: Zaphod (Quit: reboot)
 [01:01:21] <@Platypus> (so the point at which the cone melts is the point
at which the glaze does.. whatever it is the glaze does, which you'll get to
later?)
 [01:01:26] <@Roya> 1)Choose clay. I'm going to choose Soldate-60 (which is
a clay i use a lot.) it's a cone 10 clay, which means at 2381 degrees
farenheit, it matures.
 [01:01:41] <@Roya> it has 60 mesh sand in it, which means it'll be easy to
throw, and to handbuild with
 [01:01:48] <@marina> "mesh"?
 [01:01:56] <@Roya> mesh is the size of the sand grain
 [01:02:02] <@marina> aaahh
 [01:02:02] <@Roya> 30 is bigger grains than 60
 [01:02:06] <@marina> oh, ok
 [01:02:20] <@Roya> Soldate60 is a grayish tan color when it's fired, so it
won't alter the glazes too much
 [01:02:26] * @Platypus notes the generic usefulness to outsiders of the
name "soldate-60" is roughly that of "k6-2" ;)
 [01:02:33] * @marina grins...
 [01:02:33] * @Roya nods and grins
 [01:02:41] * @PaperMoon laughs
 [01:02:52] <@Roya> (except Joe Soldate made the formula for this clay, and
it has 60 mesh sand in it, so it makes sense)
 [01:03:16] <@Platypus> (and I assume ceramics people/geeks can walk  by
another ceramics person and say "ah, using soldate-60 I see!"?)
 [01:03:32] * @Jauss grins
 [01:03:33] <@Roya> nope
 [01:03:36] <@Roya> because clay looks alike
 [01:03:37] <@Roya> :P
 [01:03:39] <@Platypus> heh
 [01:03:41] * @Jauss laughs
 [01:03:42] * @marina grins....
 [01:03:46] <@Roya> there are some variations, like the color and you can
see sand in it sometimes
 [01:03:59] <@Roya> so i can tell, if you have a gray clay, that you're not
using... Redware
 [01:04:08] <@marina> cause it's not red!
 [01:04:08] <@Roya> but if you just have some random gray clay, i have no
idea
 [01:04:25] <@Platypus> could you make a pretty accurate guess by feel?
 [01:04:46] <@Platypus> er, I mean.. sorry.. please continue with the steps
:)
 [01:04:49] <@Roya> well let me give you some perspective:
 [01:04:58] <@Roya> my store has over 200 premade clays. and we custom
make.
 [01:05:03] <@Roya> there's no way in the world i could tell.
 [01:05:17] <@Roya> ok back to the steps
 [01:05:20] <@Platypus> ah.. *shuts up*
 [01:05:23] <@Roya> so i've chosen my clay
 [01:05:43] <@Roya> 2)throw with it. handbuild with it.
 [01:05:52] <@marina> throw is on the wheel, right?
 [01:05:58] <@Roya> this has a whole discussion in and of itself...the
howto's
 [01:06:00] <@Roya> yeah, on a wheel
 [01:06:02] * @marina grins
 [01:06:09] <@marina> howto's is something else entirely...
 [01:06:09] <@Roya> there are an endless variety of wheels...
 [01:06:41] <@Roya> so just know that people chose wheels the same way
they'd chose clay; based on what they need it to do.
 [01:06:51] <@marina> what kinds of wheels are there?
 [01:07:09] * @PaperMoon grins and remembers ranting to Platty about the
social structure of a skating rink...
 [01:07:15] <@Roya> the most popular ones are Soldner, Shimpo, Brent, and
Laguna
 [01:07:26] <@Roya> Laguna is the best, because of it's new pedal design
 [01:07:28] <@Roya> then Soldner
 [01:07:34] <@Roya> then Shimpo and Brent. brent's teh cheapest
 [01:07:35] * @Roya grins
 [01:07:42] * @marina nods
 [01:07:43] *** Joins: Zaphod
 [01:07:43] <@Enigma> This is very very bad.
 [01:07:53] <@Roya> So i'd throw a bowl.
 [01:07:53] *** marina sets mode: +o Zaphod
 [01:07:54] *** PaperMoon sets mode: +o Zaphod
 [01:08:01] * @Ratio ponders what kind of wheel his mom has
 [01:08:09] <@Zaphod> platty: it's working
 [01:08:14] <@Platypus> Zaphod: sweet
 [01:08:25] <@Platypus> pedal design?
 [01:08:31] <@PaperMoon> why is one kind of wheel better than another?
 [01:08:43] <@Zaphod> brb
 [01:08:45] *** Quits: Zaphod (Quit: Linux.  It does a developer good.)
 [01:08:55] <@Roya> some wheels can't center (centering clay...getting
it..centered on the wheel, so you can throw it evenly)
 [01:08:58] <@Roya> very much clay
 [01:09:08] <@Roya> they're small, with a fairly un-powerful motor
 [01:09:13] <@Roya> some are kickwheels (which are...hell)
 [01:09:17] <@Roya> which means no motor at all
 [01:09:18] <@Ratio> uhm yes
 [01:09:28] * @marina nods...
 [01:09:30] <@PaperMoon> well is centering a factor of the diameter of the
wheel?
 [01:09:38] <@Roya> others, like the LagunaPacifica, can center over 200
pounds of clay
 [01:09:39] <@Ratio> Wheels that don't center?  How the hell would you throw
it, then?
 [01:09:51] <@Roya> No, they'd throw center. they just can't center very
many pounds of clay
 [01:09:52] <@marina> wheels that don't center large amounts of clay at
once
 [01:09:55] <@Roya> they're too week
 [01:09:55] <@Roya> yeah
 [01:09:58] <@Roya> weak, rather
 [01:10:00] <@Ratio> oh I see.
 [01:10:09] <@Roya> ALso, the Laguna Pacifica has a new pedal design:
 [01:10:10] <@PaperMoon> what is centering?
 [01:10:15] <@PaperMoon> sorry
 [01:10:35] <@Roya> (the pedal is like the gas pedal in a car. makes it go)
this pedal uses a magnet instead of a pentiameter (i think it's called that)
and so it's just more sensitive and goes faster.
 [01:10:36] <@Enigma> He's as fast as a buttered weasel on a water slide!
 [01:10:42] * @Platypus grins.. was gonna ask about kick vs. motor.. there's
a small workshop at fort warden, and the person who runs it seems to be all
obsessed with kick wheel superiority..
 [01:10:57] <@Platypus> or at least did.. it's been ages since I've been in
there..
 [01:11:09] <@Roya> centering is taking an uneven lump of clay and using
centrifical force to get it completely balanced on the wheel
 [01:11:16] <@Platypus> ooh, cool.. (I like magnets)
 [01:12:02] * @marina laughs, remembering charlie and ryland looking at
e-bay at rick's apartment and trying to figure out what they could do with
some really, really powerful magnets
 [01:12:04] <@Roya> motor is better. kick is a pain. but your legs get a
workout. but you can't throw big with them, because you have to constantly
be kicking it go get it to go.
 [01:12:33] <@Roya> So
 [01:12:34] <@PaperMoon> um... dosen't centrifugal force throw things
outwards?
 [01:12:43] <@Roya> not if your hands are gripping it like iron claws
 [01:12:45] * @Roya grins
 [01:12:47] <@Platypus> heh
 [01:12:58] <@PaperMoon> alright.
 [01:12:59] <@Roya> it's the opposite reaction to every action law
 [01:13:16] <@PaperMoon> I see.
 [01:13:25] <@Roya> ...centering and throwing is something i absolutely
can't tell you how to do unless i had you all here with me
 [01:13:57] <@Roya> so anyways
 [01:14:02] <@Roya> i've taken this lump of Soldate60
 [01:14:11] <@Roya> thrown it on my brand new LagunaPacifica wheel
 [01:14:17] <@Roya> and now have this spiffy little bowl
 [01:14:30] <@Roya> i've used a lot of water to throw it
 [01:14:31] * @Ratio wants to do pottery again
 [01:14:35] <@Roya> and so it's really wet right now
 [01:14:48] <@Roya> it's called Greenware
 [01:14:53] <@Roya> greenware is clay that hasn't been fired yet
 [01:14:56] <@marina> ok
 [01:14:57] <@Roya> there are three stages of greenware
 [01:15:03] <@Roya> wet, leather hard, and bone dry
 [01:15:27] <@Roya> it's best if you let it get leather hard before you fire
it the first time.
 [01:15:36] <@Roya> but if you "candle" the kiln for a long time, you can
fire it wet.
 [01:15:40] * @marina nods and knows exactly what you mean cause she's felt
it
 [01:15:46] <@marina> candle?
 [01:15:56] <@Roya> candling is when you have the burners on in the kiln, so
there is fire, but the door is open.
 [01:16:00] <@Roya> so you let the chemicals escape
 [01:16:09] <@Platypus> and firing wet is bad because..?
 [01:16:09] <@Roya> and you are bringing up the temperture reeeeeeeeallllly
slowly
 [01:16:29] <@Roya> because heat + water = steam
 [01:16:32] <@Roya> and steam blows things up
 [01:16:46] <@marina> aaahh...
 [01:16:46] <@Roya> think about it: we run trains on steam.
 [01:16:48] * @Ratio nods
 [01:16:51] * @Platypus grins
 [01:16:55] <@marina> used to. :)
 [01:17:02] <@Roya> a lot of people think that "air bubbles" are bad, but
it's not the air that's the problem
 [01:17:17] <@Roya> it's that the water gets inside those pockets and turns
into steam, which makes the piece blow up
 [01:17:22] <@Roya> so that's why it's best to dry them first
 [01:17:29] <@Roya> but if you candle it sloooooooooowlly then it's ok.
 [01:18:08] <@Roya> Firing off a bisque kiln takes 3 days usually
 [01:18:09] <@marina> oo, i get it.
 [01:18:14] <@marina> cool, i always wondered about that
 [01:18:19] <@marina> three days?? wow.
 [01:18:20] <@Ratio> 3 days?  hm
 [01:18:25] <@Ratio> bit long, there
 [01:18:26] <@Roya> when it's done, you have all these pinky looking
vessels
 [01:18:29] <@Roya> that feel kind of chalky
 [01:18:36] <@Roya> and look and feel hard, but break fairly easily
 [01:18:57] <@Roya> now it's time to glaze!
 [01:19:03] * @Platypus glances up at the pink chalky little bowl he made
when he was 10.. ah-so..
 [01:19:06] <@Ratio> mmm, glazing..
 [01:19:09] * @Roya notices that she's abandoned the numbers
 [01:19:23] <@marina> who needs numbers... ;)
 [01:19:33] <@Ratio> perfectionists
 [01:19:35] <@Ratio> like me
 [01:19:38] * @marina stores a thought about life to say later
 [01:19:42] <@Roya> First thing you do when you're going to glaze is wash
off the vessel.
 [01:19:47] <@marina> why?
 [01:19:50] <@Ratio> sponge?
 [01:19:52] <@Roya> patience!
 [01:19:57] <@Roya> nope, just put it under the faucet
 [01:20:00] * @Ratio remembers something about sponging
 [01:20:07] <@Roya> bisqued clay is verrrry porous
 [01:20:07] <@Roya> it sucks up the water
 [01:20:08] <@Platypus> just assume we're asking "why" to  everything ;) 
 [01:20:09] <@Roya> you can even hear it
 [01:20:14] <@Roya> i am platty ;)
 [01:20:42] * @marina grins...
 [01:20:42] <@Roya> the reason you wash it off is because of an annoying
little thing called "refractory dust"
 [01:20:45] <@Platypus> (we embody the best qualities of two year olds!)
 [01:20:50] * @Roya laughs
 [01:20:59] <@marina> and refractory is the thing that... um... you told us
but i forget
 [01:21:02] <@marina> the dirt thing
 [01:21:02] <@Roya> refractory dust is basically powdered bisque
 [01:21:22] <@marina> but what does that mean...?
 [01:21:52] * @marina scrolls up... refractory things inhibits melting?
 [01:21:53] <@Roya> it's just little bits and pieces of other people's
blown-up vessels, and just the dust that comes from being in the studio.
 [01:22:11] <@Roya> the reason why it's a problem is it gets on and inside
your vessel, and the glaze won't take there
 [01:22:21] <@Roya> so you wash it off.
 [01:22:23] <@Ratio> aha!
 [01:22:43] <@Roya> you try not to handle your pieces too much, because of
the oil on your hands. but my hands are so dried up from being in clay, that
i don't have much oil anyway.
 [01:22:50] <@Roya> now you have more choices
 [01:22:55] <@Roya> there are bunches of different glazing methods
 [01:23:18] <@Roya> since i have a cone 10 clay i'll talk about the cone 10
glazes first
 [01:23:26] * @marina nods
 [01:23:29] <@Roya> When you glaze to cone 10 it's called "stoneware"
 [01:23:39] <@Roya> it's called that basically because after it's been fired
to that, it's hard as stone
 [01:23:40] <@Jauss> ah
 [01:23:44] <@Roya> and the pores are completely sealed
 [01:23:45] <@marina> cool
 [01:23:51] <@Platypus> sweet
 [01:23:53] * @marina nods. makes sense. cool.
 [01:24:06] <@PaperMoon> neato.
 [01:24:21] <@Roya> first i'll tell you the properties of glaze, and then
the steps to glaze
 [01:24:27] * @marina nods
 [01:24:35] <@Roya> Glaze is made up of three main ingredients: flux,
alumina, and sillica
 [01:24:57] <@Ratio> what are flux and alumina?
 [01:25:02] <@Roya> Sillica is glass. (found in sand, quartz..) glass melts.
so this is the melting agent of our glazes
 [01:25:16] * @Ratio nods
 [01:25:20] * @marina nods, cool
 [01:25:26] <@Roya> Alumina is clay. it's a refractor, so it inhibits the
melt. because for every action you have to have an equal and opposite
reaction. it also binds the glaze to the clay of the vessel.
 [01:25:46] <@Roya> alumina is also called Kaolin, or Edgar Plastic Kaolin
(EPK), or China Clay 
 [01:26:00] * @marina frowns...
 [01:26:10] <@Roya> The last ingredient is Flux. the flux is what binds the
refractor and the sillica together.
 [01:26:11] <@marina> i don't think i quite understand that...
 [01:26:15] <@Roya> lead is a flux.
 [01:26:27] <@Platypus> uh.. so you want the glass to melt, but not quite
melt?
 [01:26:35] <@Roya> but since lead is poisonous, they've figured out other
ones. Such as Feldsbar, or Borax.
 [01:26:42] <@Ratio> Borax!
 [01:26:47] <@Roya> You want it to melt, but not completely off of the
vessel.
 [01:26:54] <@Roya> you want it to melt and adhere to your pot
 [01:26:59] * @Platypus nods
 [01:27:03] <@marina> so the alumina is to bind it to the pot?
 [01:27:04] <@Roya> and get inside the pores of the clay so it's water
proof, and stuff.
 [01:27:06] <@Roya> right
 [01:27:09] <@marina> oh, ok
 [01:27:14] <@marina> i got it
 [01:27:53] <@Roya> so that's it basically, as far as the makeup of glaze.
there's teh whole color thing, but there's a zillion colors, and a zillion
glazes, so that's the basic on What Is A Glaze
 [01:28:16] <@marina> cool
 [01:28:18] <@Platypus> just a quick question on color if I may.. what do
you use for coloring agents?
 [01:28:26] <@Roya> oxidized metals, usually
 [01:28:30] <@Roya> cobalt, copper, iron..
 [01:28:34] <@Roya> i'll get to those in a minute
 [01:28:50] <@Platypus> cool
 [01:29:24] <@Roya> So I know, because i've done it a lot, that RedEye
Special is a particularily good glaze to use on Soldate 60.
 [01:29:45] <@Roya> So after I've washed off my bowl, the first thing I want
to do is Wax the bottom.
 [01:29:51] <@Roya> we have this thing called Wax Resist
 [01:29:58] <@Roya> which is basically a watery wax
 [01:30:34] <@Roya> and we use a sponge, or brush, and wipe it on teh bottom
of the vessel, or anywhere where the vessel will touch the kiln shelves.
 [01:30:44] <@marina> to stop it from sticking?
 [01:30:46] <@Roya> because what happens is that the glaze will resist the
wax
 [01:30:52] <@Roya> so it's easy to wipe away
 [01:31:01] <@Roya> and when the glaze melts, it won't melt and stick onto
something, exactly marina
 [01:31:08] <@Platypus> ooh, cool
 [01:31:15] <@Roya> because each kiln shelf costs roughly 125 dollars
 [01:31:27] <@Roya> and there are....oh........ 80 odd shelves in my
favorite kiln
 [01:31:28] <@marina> heehee
 [01:31:32] <@Ratio> ooh, I rememerb that part!
 [01:31:44] <@Ratio> erk..
 [01:31:45] <@Platypus> what is the interior of a kiln made of?
 [01:31:48] <@Roya> fire brick
 [01:31:59] <@Roya> if it's a gas kiln
 [01:32:18] <@Roya> i'll get to that in a minute, let me finish teh glazes
 [01:32:27] <@Roya> so you've waxed the bottom of the bowl
 [01:32:32] <@Roya> then you dip the bowl in the RedEye Special
 [01:32:56] <@Roya> (dipping is better for cone 10 glazes than brushing or
pouring because it's much more consistent)
 [01:33:02] * @marina nods
 [01:33:16] <@Roya> then it gets fired again.
 [01:33:18] <@Roya> this time to cone 10.
 [01:34:00] <@Roya> and when this load is done, you have a spiffy looking
bowl made out of Soldate 60, thrown on a LagunaPacifica, fired in a gas
kiln, with RedEye Special.
 [01:34:01] <@Roya> :)
 [01:34:09] <@Ratio> heheh
 [01:34:13] <@marina> yay!
 [01:34:14] <@Roya> and since i chose a glaze that doesn't use lead as a
flux, you can eat out of it
 [01:34:15] <@Roya> now
 [01:34:16] <@Roya> the thing is
 [01:34:17] <@Platypus> whoo!
 [01:34:24] <@Roya> i don't like stoneware nearly as much as i like "raku"
 [01:34:40] <@Ratio> raku... I've heard of that
 [01:34:44] * @marina 's heard of that too. lots.
 [01:34:45] * @marina grins.
 [01:34:52] * @Roya grins
 [01:34:54] <@Roya> yeah well
 [01:34:57] <@Roya> it just sohappens to be my passion
 [01:34:58] <@Roya> :)
 [01:35:00] * @marina grins
 [01:35:03] <@Roya> rakuing is heaven.
 [01:35:08] <@Roya> but that doesn't explain anything.
 [01:35:11] * @Platypus will be the clueless one then.. raku?
 [01:35:19] * @Jauss grins and recalls hearing about it too
 [01:35:23] <@marina> hey... i really, really have to go to bed... will
someone eamil me the rest of this conversation?
 [01:35:27] * @Roya laughs
 [01:35:30] <@Jauss> sure
 [01:35:33] <@marina> sanks
 [01:35:36] <@marina> love you all
 [01:35:46] <@Platypus> g'night! :)
 [01:35:53] <@Jauss> go well
 [01:35:54] <@Ratio> G'night, Marina.
 [01:35:56] <@Roya> night marina
 [01:35:59] * @Roya hugs