Continuing the discussion on the RecentChanges messageboard... I still don't get why most people are going about their everyday lives right now as if Afghanis weren't being bombed as I write this. I don't get how even I am going about my everyday life like nothing is happening. Only the big pictures of explosions in the newspaper everyday, and photos of fleeing Afghanis and injured people remind me. I usually don't read the articles. I just stare. And whenever I see a flag outside one of my neighbor's houses, or businesses on the way to school and work, or on the side of the transit bus, I still wonder, although it's painfully obvious Yeah, I feel sick about it. And I will wonder what is up with anyone who doesn't feel sick about it too.
dose anyone know what the excuse that the U.S is useing, for them haveing Trained Bin Laden, or for them haveing been giveing the talibon money?
someone the other day was telling me how that as they understood it, Bin Laden was trained By the U.S. As a Terroist, so they could Use Bin Laden and his fallowers, agenst countrys like Russa, who the U.S can not aford to pick a fight with, becuase they are to big, and would kick U.S.A's ass, so what do you do? you find someone in a Neighering countrey, who is going to be really hard to trace, and PAY for them to be trained by the U.S millatary, so if needed, they can do the dirty work of the U.S millatary.
so why do we get pissed at them when they turn agest us? for the same reson that we blame the wrong people for school shootings, and other horble acts. Rachel The media claims that 90% of the American population is behind Bush and his decisions There are things to be said for war. War is enormous. War is profitable. War is inspiring. War binds us together and unites us and makes us step out of ourselves to see the big picture. Then again, so does peace. War just does it faster, peace is extremely slow in coming and it has to be worked on little-by-little. It takes a lot of strength in people to work for nonviolence, terrorism is simply letting your anger go. It's true. I am angry. It was terrifying to be thousands of miles away, to hear the news and know that my mom was in New York at the time. She works in New York, commutes there every weekday. She's there right now, and the only thing I can think is that I'm damned relieved to know that there are military personell around, that there is as much security as possible. And if anyone tried to attack there again, I would not want to give them a chance in hell. I know people say that America had it coming... but this...! Those people who worked in the world trade center were innocent. Maybe they were computer technitions, secretaries, filers, but they did not have a part in the government's decisions on foreign policy and even though I never agreed with the things that the WTC was involved in, they didn't deserve to die any more than you or I deserve to die And those are the reasons I can't bring myself to adamantly protest for peace. I want peace, badly, but I also believe that for us to not react would have been a bad idea. We were attacked on our grounds. This is no Vietnam. This is our business. If we hadn't reacted, what would have happened? They only would have been encouraged. But war....? I am a peaceful person, and the idea of violence disgusts me. I don't understand it at all. Yet, I can't think of what else we should do. I read the headlines and I think there must be something wrong, some secrets that I dont' know about, because this story is too perfect. It seems more like a movie than a real-life scenerio, and I am at a loss to understand it much at all.
Ok, so far I've tried to be sensitive to other people's beliefs but at this point I'm saying what I think is right and I don't care who hears. I'm sick of the media perverting the facts. They say everyone is preparing for war, but when I talk to people on the streets, most of them want peace. All over war is adverdised like snickers and coke and nikes. I'm SICK of it. They're advertising for war. I mean what the FUCK? The voice of the people is shut out and only the bigwigs can talk. I'm sick of being shut up and shut out. I say my view wherever I like, as long as It dosn't put anyone in danger. I think the US had it coming, I KNEW something like this was breweing, I knew SOMETHING was going to pop. I was hoping for something peaceful, bot something like september 11th. And now the govornment is going after the terrosts. When we bomb afganistan, we call it war, when they might strike back, it's called terrorist strikes. that's totally backwards and screwed up. We're rapidly apraching, if we havn't reached it yet, a state of nationalism (that's where the nat in 'natzi' comes from) that rivals germany's in the 30's and 40's. It's like if a bully in the playground finally gets a black eye and now throws a tantrum for someone DARING to stand up for it's rights. Of course I don't think giving black eyes (or flying jets into buildings) is the way to solve this, but it still makes you think. AT this point I'm ashamed to be american, and I see the so highly worshipped flag as a smack in the face.
My sympathy goes out to rachel, I know how you feel, you are not alone. Let's hope peace and love prevails, and then maybe justice for ALL, not just some.
i don't really know what to say. i come home from work three nights a week, and from school the two other nights, and i get on my computer, and i read the news. the news is an inaccurate representation of whats going on, bled into my personal opinions and money making schemes. it's not telling me what's really going on, and god, i'm sure it's making america look a lot more beautiful than they are right now. but i read it. because i want to take it for what it's worth. and every night, that's right. at least five nights a week. i cry. and i cry a lot. and i try to increase the meaning of my relationships. and i try and spread love. and i can't do anything. i can't do anything. except start small and that's what i'm trying to do. i'm sickened. i'm upset. i'm sad. i'm frustarated. and i'm shaking. i wish somebody could see the way i'm feeling. the way this is affecting me. i go thru my days trying to not succumb to the reality that there is a war going on. that these hateful crimes are indeed being continued, night after night. i'm trying to accept it as reality, but it's so far from what i want anyones reality to be, that i'm having a really hard time. i'm having a hard time living and learning, loving... when i can't be helping. i feel horribly upset that so many people here feel so hateful. that so many people here are so filled with this deep blood burning sense of revenge. i don't want this to go on. i don't think that the people who initiated this should be able to continue it. but i know we're going about this the wrong way. ( we as humans in general) i know there has to be a better way to things. i believe it in my heart. all this hate it's so much. it's hard for me to breath sometimes. i'm upset to see anyones mind not aching. i'm upset that people really don't understand. i don't care if it's americans dying. i don't care if it's afghanistans dying. i don't care if it's palestines dying. i don't care if it's christians. if it's muslims. if it's atheists. if they're babys or old men with wrinkled hands- i don't want their houses destroyed- i don't want my house destroyed. i don't want people who've dealt with this their entire lives to deal with it anymore- and i don't want them to use that as an excuse to make us fall apart. i want people to stop being killed. so maybe i could stop crying. i love you guys. i really do. i hope maybe you'll try to spread the little pieces all around, and stop breathing anger, and try to breath solutions. -rachel +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This whole experience since September 11th has found me more alienated from my otherwise close friends than anything before. I've always had friends who had a wide variety of political views, but everyone seems to be dividing over this. My biggest problem is this... I was fucking upset on September 11th. Heartbroken. But there was a glimmer of hope I had, about Americans and humans learning a lesson from their pain. My thoughts were like this: "I feel horrible. Everyone feels horrible. This is a tragedy. People shouldn't die for their government's sins. Those people were innocent. I know deep down stuff like this happens in other countries, but it's never hit me so hard before. I need to hold on to this feeling and fight agianst innocent people dying, anywhere". I hoped a lot of people were feeling the same thing. But instead the feeling overwhelmingly seems to be "Hey, fuckers, don't mess with america. We're better than that. We'll kill your people if any of them kills any of us." That breaks my heart again. Civilians died in our bombings. That ends my hope. We did not learn the right lesson There is a widespread assumption, even here among you divided campers, that terrorists who attacked New York equal Afghanistan. That's not really fact. The terrorists can almost surely be linked, way way way back, to Osama Bin Laden, who the oppressive Afghanistan government harbors. That doesn't mean "Afghanistan" in the abstract "did this" to "America" in the abstract. It's much much more complex than that. And just like the people working in the WTC building that day had very little to do with American president's decisions on world issues that pissed the terrorists off... the people of Afghanistan have nothing to do with the suicide bombers who commited this crime. Something needed to be done about the Taliban before any of this happened, but I don't think the way it's being done is very humane. And, as a sidenote (because that's what the issue is)... I think the food packets are strict PR, a weak way of softening the blow for peace-lovers. -Summer I agree with Kat
I was listening to the radio a couple weeks ago, (Amy Goodman's excellent Democracy Now) and there was a professor talking who said she sat down with her students after the 11th and had them talk over their feelings. A bunch of them wanted to bomb the hell out of "them." She asked them, who is them? and then asked that all the students who knew where Afghanistan was to raise their hands. Only one out of twenty knew. I think that Americans desperately want a "them" right now. Bush keeps talking about "the terrorists" and "terrorism" as if it were a name and physical description; something with such an agreed-upon definition that he need not bother to actually define it, the same way I hear people on the street using "them." There is a "them" in that there are people who are responsible for this, and there is terrorism, but the utter lack of definition leaves these concepts open to interpretation, which is dangerous. Afghanistan is one of the poorest nations in the world. It's been through a drought for the past few years. It has been dominated by various regimes for a long time. Afghanis have been massacred, brutally oppressed, and stripped of basic human rights by their government. People are starving, and people will die. I know there's all this talk about hitting only military targets, but I've read up on the bombing that this government has done in years past. In Iraq the labeling of what was a "military target" or not was indiscriminate and absurd Re the "releif packets" that are being dropped at the moment...I find myself very skeptical. I hope that they will help the many Afghani people who are starving or on the brink of it. But it seems really, really strange to be dropping bombs and food packets...like some half-hearted PR. Oh jeez I have so much I want to say now that I've gotten started. There's so much the corporate media isn't telling us. I've read that bin laden was originally put in power by the u.s. who wanted to use him to advance their own interests in that region. but how many people know that? do you know that the u.s. gave the taliban a bunch of money just a few years ago to cut back on their production of opium? The complexities of all these politics stun me. Please those of you out there who are saying the U.S. "asked for it": I agree that the U.S. government has done more than I can even begin to count or care to think about to give the rest of the world just cause to resent and even hate us. And I know you don't mean that all those people in NY deserved to die, but please be sensitive. karma it may be, but only in the sense that we civilians, regular people, who did not die, maybe understand a little better how a lot of the rest of the world feels: to live and know that so many people died, to be so sad about the present and afraid about the future. I beleive in karma, but if it was truly merely the justice of the universe catching up, weapons manufacturers, the pentagon, mr. bush, and the vastly wealthy U.S. corporations would have been totally obliterated. Instead bush's approval rating has skyrocketed and I am sure the weapons manufacturers are quite well off at the moment. I don't want to say that I am exempt from the responsibility of anything my government does because I'm just a civilian. I am not my government, I'm just an ordinary American girl...but more and more I realize exactly how injust my country is to people around the world, how much my country is built and maintained on the blood of people who are forgotten or dismissed. We all have some responsibility if we are complicit in this system. I'm not exempt. But we are human and this was not "deserved," though it got everybody's attention, and it has me thinking and making myself as confused as all hell. There's so much more I could say but I should shut up now and go to bed. Sorry this is so damn long. Love y'all! I'm still trying to decide how I feel about all of this. On one hand, I'm feeling like we shouldn't bomb them or attack them at all because that's just going to cause more people to die, and the world doesn't need any more death and destruction. But on the other hand, I don't feel that we can just sit here and let ourselves get beaten into the ground. I do not, under any circumstances, believe that we deserved what happened on the 11th, or that we didn't do anything to provoke it, because yes. We have been sticking our noses into other people's business, but that doesn't mean we deserved to be attacked like that. Yes, I acknowledge the fact that in the middle east, bombings like this are nearly everyday things, and that's horrible; no one deserves this. I know I'm not really making any sense, but none of this really does make sense to me right now. I wish there was some way to resolve this without violence, but it seems that we're a bit past that point right now. I've been listening to a lot of MPR's coverage, and a Muslim woman called in this morning, and she was talking about how Jihad can't really be declared, and that there are all sorts of "guidelines" as to what is Jihad and what isn't, and she's just as horrified by this as anyone. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't know what to do or say or think or feel. I'm deeply troubled by the fact that "my government" has caused innocent people to suffer, but I'm also troubled that my country (which, frankly, I'm not feeling much loyalty towards these days) was caused to suffer, too. What's worse is that I feel selfish about the whole thing... because I know the US has hardly suffered when you compare what's happened here with what's been happening in the rest of the world for centuries.
ok heres the short and sweet 2 cents on sept 11. my heart and soul go out to the poor people traped in the buldings you didn't need that. it is still really tragic but the usa government has been asking for this for years. when they whent and bombed little 3er world countrys and things like that this is what happens. sorry but its called karma. as for the bombings i think its sorta odd that where bombing a 3er world country.(when i say where i mean the usa government)i know they hit us first so lets get them 3 times harder but guys most of the kids there wont live to see there 6th birthday. every 5 minuets a woman dies in laber (source CBC news tv station). then we go and drop food and stuff on them. yes i understand that its on different parts but still shouldnt we be killing them or not at all? it seems sorta odd doing both at once... another thing is that i too like Dawn dont beleve in revenge so this hole thing is sorta.... silly(?) mind you if i lived in the USA id probably be really hurt and sadened and want to do something like this as well so im so not blaming you sorta odd how our world words love and hugs (no war)
i seem to end up arguing with anybody no matter what their view is. that it's neccisary, that it would just continue if we don't do anything about it, or that the us government planned this out themselves. it's such a controversal issue, it's really hard for me to just stick to one side or the other. i guess at this point i'm just meant to listen. I dont beleive in revenge... But i have spent a lot of time lately wondering if America IS doing the right thing or not. I mean really, what would i do in their shoes? We cant let just whoever the hell feels like it and wants to make a point kill innocent civilians whenever they can make the right explosives or control a plane. Dont get me wrong, killing people is wrong and i dont like it. But im not above breaking their toys in the slightest. And that unfortunatly comes at a price. and Afganistan needs help. Everything i have found, even before the new york attacks, have said that the country is f'cked. Its full of landmines with very little food. It's people (/especially/ woman) are among the most oppressed in the world. I wont even pretend that i know what to do now. Who will be the goverment of Afganistan a year from now? The northern alliance wont cant and shouldnt do the job. Is america going to control the country? One has to wonder.
-Dawn
To continue this discussion, I'll add that what I've noticed about this whole mess is that it seems to have divided most people into two groups: those who believe in revenge and those who don't. Isn't that sort of fascinating? I wonder if many people are challenging their own beliefs/ values right now.
kitschmag at nbtsc.org
2001-10-08 19:19:48
The Big, Rotten AppleRosie's got the right idea, but I'll say one more thing: I pass an average of five hundred missing signs a day. If I go too far downtown, the air reeks like burnt fruit, and everything gets this filmy layer of white on it after walking around awhile. Midtown protesters fight each other and angry outsiders. Disgusting amounts of relegious fanatics occupy the street corners, preaching. Strange statues are erected all over the place. People stand in clumps and cry spontaneously. Press is everywhere. Guns are everywhere. Military, everywhere. This mess has turned New York into hell. I want revenge. And I don't care if that makes me a bad person. I want an eye for a really big whoppin' eye. -Maggie My heartfelt sympathy goes out to you and everybody who has been effected by this tragedy. Please consider your suffering and then imagine other innocent people living the same hell. Now I want you to consider the fact that the United States has dropped bombs on a country filled ALMOST entirely with innocent people. Where is the justice in that? Just because a few disturbed people feel that the only way they can change the world is through violence doesn't mean that an entire country or a race or religion's worth of people deserve to die! Please consider these things very carefully when you suggest that what the United States government is doing is "just". - Jonah ::ffff:24.1.92.20
2001-10-08 19:03:07
discussionhey y'all thelhf at nbtsc.org
2001-10-08 18:58:49
Are we terrorists? Jonah, terrorism is not and in no way ever has been "simply blowing up buildings and leaving people dead and homeless." Terrorsim is killing as many innocent people as you can to make a point. To get a message across. If you look in any dictionary, you will find the real meaning of the word "terrorist." The USA may have comited some acts terrorism, depending on your definition of the word terrorist. But they are in no way the "number one perpetrator of terrorism in the world." -Victor VICTOR at your suggestion I looked up the word terrorism in my copy of Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary (I realize that you did say "terrorist" but they were classified under the same heading) here is the definition given: 1. The act of terrorizing or the state of being terrorized. 2. Threats or acts of violence, especially as a means of intimidating or coercing. Now if the United States government is not the number one perpetrator of terrorism by that definition then I don't know who is. I also want you to understand that I am not trying to belittle the suffering of the grieving families, my most heartfelt sympathy is theirs. What I am trying to say is that a "war against terrorism" is a silly way to classify what the US government is doing. - Jonah bottombracket@nbtsc.org
2001-10-08 18:20:07
... I would like to say that the moment after I wrote the statement directly below this one I realized how poorly the sentences were constructed and how many spelling mistakes I had made... please forgive. Jonah bottombracket at nbtsc.org
2001-10-08 18:17:14
You MUST be turning conservative! I don't think that any of the reasons you have are reason enough to side with that fascists in control of your country! Here's something for you to consider: what is a terrorist, and what is terrorism? If its simply blowing up buildings and leaving people dead and homeless then the number one perpetrator of terrorism in the world is the United States Government! I think that you should reconsider some of your newfound conservative leanings... Jonah, who's from Victoria ::ffff:216.231.33.180
2001-10-08 17:56:52
Just don't be proud of it. don't think we're the rightious. there's something to be said for revenge. some people even consider it justified. but we're not the rightious, we're the vengful.
we've killed orders of magnitude more "civilians" in iraq by starving them to death than died in this, the biggest foreign attack on
US soil. we slaughtered almost the entire native population to take the land we live on, braking nearly every treaty we ever signed
with them in the process. we're the only cournty in the world ever to have used nuclear weapons. we have human rights and
environmental laws we're proud of, but make no effort to make our own corporations follow if the people and places they ravage
aren't our citizens or within our borders. We may have a right to relatiate, but we have no right to declare ourselves rightious
innocents. we have no right to demean our "enimy" as "terrorists" and call our own actions moral and just. our government behaves
in an arrogant, overbaring, disrespectfull, and often abusive way to the rest of the world. responding tooth for a tooth and eye for an
eye may be understandable, and perhaps "justified", but if we actually want to put an end to terrorism against us, our government's
attitude towards the rest of the world needs to mature drastically, we need to stop doing things to the rest of the world that makes
people believe us to be spawn of satan. kitschmag@nbtsc.org
2001-10-08 15:33:39
Am I turning conservative? Ugh, why do I keep finding myself semi-siding with the government? I used to be so adamantly anti-Bush. Yeah, I know the
bombing sucks, and it's just ridiculous to follow it up with a drop of rations, etc. but I'm impressed with how long they waited to do
it. If this administration was as shmucky as my crazy liberal side once believed, they would've made Afganistan a nuclear
wasteland by now. Plus, considering the devastating HORRIBLE effect this had on my city alone...I don't care. Two wrongs don't
make a right, says Mr. Brady. Mr. Brady wasn't speaking of a league of terrorists badly in need of a spanking. Skin them, execute
them all, broadcast it on national television. I'll tape it, and I'll cheer. NBTSWikiWiki | Recent Changes Edited 31 times, last edited on October 17, 2001 by ::ffff:63.206.116.55. © 2000 NBTSC Webmasters |
does the person that put that up, or who failed to take it down, are they really cheering our country on?? Do they really look at pictures of the rubble in Afghanistan and nod and cheer us on, and look at pictures of our rubble and cry and act as though they're the first and only innocent people who have died, ever?
