News Flash!There will not be bedtimes at camp this year! I (Zack) sent off my letter aposing them to Grace, and it turns out it was unnecessary (thought helpfull!) Here's graces reply, which she asked me to post: "Taber and I decided a month or two ago not to make a bedtime rule ~ our feeling is that a rule is not how we really want to address this issue and, as you say, is not in keeping with our desire to support people in taking responsibility for themselves (at camp and in life in general). We will, however, address the bedtime issue directly in other ways. I totally agree with you that lack of sleep is only one of many factors contributing to the sickness at camp; I also agree with you that sleep makes for a stronger immune system, which makes for less sickness. So we will do some things to promote more sleeping at camp, and we will do other things to promote better health in general at camp. Your ideas are great ~ we'll incorporate many of them into the plan we're working on." ~Grace. What do you think of the possibility of having a BedTime at camp this year? Completely silly? Good idea? Would you stay up later if morning meeting were at 10 instead of 9? Are you going or have you written to Grace about it? What Grace says in the letter: "... We're thinking about instituting a bed time at NBTSC. Yep, it's true. I remember one year at NBTSC when we were brainstorming in a staff meeting about how to prevent so much sickness, and someone suggested that we institute a bedtime, and I said "If I ever enforce a bedtime here, please somebody shoot me, because I will have gone out of my head." Well, I hope nobody takes me up on that. Here's what Taber and I, and some other staffers too, have been thinking:
We think most of you know us well enough to realize that we're not trying to arbitrarily control anyone or cramp anybody's fun, but at this point common sense is just screaming at us: let's get some sleep at NBTSC!!!! So
I was just reading this page and i can see both sides of this. One the one side people get sick, somtimes VERY sick and thats no fun for any one. Lack of sleep definantly contributes to this. So does being in a group of 120 'strangers' as fas as your imunne system is concerned. I how ever think a bed time would be a bad idea because night time is a really good time to get to know people simply BECAUSE there isn't as much going on. But we need more sleep. I would suggest haveing the mornig meeting moved back an hour to 10:00 and letting people sleep in in the morning. I LIKE being up in the morning because I'm used to it BUT i also like being up late just because i do. So where do i get more sleep. I'm 17. I can figure out when i'm tired and I'm responsable enough to go to bed. When i did stay up to late I didn't get up when the first wake up call went through but rather stayed in bed untill it was time for the morning meeting . soo....... If the morning meeting was moved back an hour people could get more sleep, The staffers wouldn't have to try to enforce a 'rule' (ACK- Bad word)(and how would they do that any how), and people could still stay up late. Would people stay up later? Some would I'm sure but if people realize it's this or a bed time maybe they would still go to bed so as not to have to bring this issue up again???
frankly I think it's a great idea. the only reason people stay up so late is because EVERYBODY else stays up late. So if everybody was in bed nobody would feel like they were missing out on anything. so its a fabulous idea. - EmilyOh I think it's a good idea, frankly. Yeah- it kinda' sucks, but I still think that it might help people not get so sick. I'm reminded of Caleb, whom, as I understand, was practically through the whole of session 2. Y'know? Most of me says it's a good idea, but... yeah. Staying up late is fun, but sleep really is neccessary (believe it or not. Hehe). Mom noted that on the parent's list, a couple of the parents (I'm not naming names) think it's a bad idea. She didn't tell me why, but it seems parents would be the ones who support it the most! I'd like to know other people's sides of it, though.. it could be worth a shot. -JessicaSkater
I don't like it. I can see why it would be good, and I agree that people do need to sleep more at camp. I don't like the idea of being forced to go to bed. And how are they going to make everybody go to bed? Send staffers out to tell everyone it's lights out time now? That wouldn't be fun for campers or staffers, and I think it would change camp alot. About 1:30am at camp, I think what's normally going on is bad jokes at the campfire, a game in dogwood, and little groups of people talking or singing in the lodge. I don't see why that should be interupted, even if it is time for bed. I think the idea of having healthy tea and garlic out all the time is good, because tea is helpful if you want to stay well. I guess garlic is too, but I don't eat raw garlic. :) I liked the early bedtime/late wake-up day at camp this year. It wasn't a forced bed time, but Grace just asked us to please turn off the music and go to bed around 12:30am, in exchange for being allowed to sleep an extra hour the next morning. It was a good idea and i think everyone was pretty happy with it. -Kathleen, who is against the bedtime even though she's almost always in bed by 1:30 at camp anyway. :) this kind of rule seems as though it will cause more conflict than solve problems. one of the most important things that i hear said about NBTSC is the amount of trust that staffers have for campers, the amount of respect on both sides. i suppose this bedtime rule isn't meant to be about respect or trust, but i'm guessing that it would mean staffers having to "keep an eye" on campers. that really doesn't sound quite right. and i know that being watched and/ or told to end a conversation, etc. really doesn't make a lot of people feel trusted or respected. someone on the #nbtsc on IRC said that there were reasons listed in the camp letter sent out recently. i'm curious as to what these were as far as sickness goes, i have my own little theory: being that the campers are unschoolers, and perhaps accustomed to taking some responsibility for their actions, i would think that it isn't really the camp's responsibility to ensure that campers are getting enough rest so that they don't get sick. and not all people tend to get sick because of sleep deprivation. i would expect that many people would get sick at camp simply because of all of the new germs that you are exposed to. (mari) [1] yup. see top.
Same here, just like Mari said... I also think that when it comes down to enforcing the rule,(And how? To what extent?) mutual respect (isn't it intrinsic to camp? unschooling?) is just not going to be the same between staffers and campers - staffers would start becoming the arbitrary rule givers, and campers the people whose job is following these rules, period.
I think that the new rule would create more problems, and not solve the sickness problem, enough to be worthwhile. I would assume that people get sick because of all the new germs they are exposed to, also. Seriously, when was the last time the water was thoroughly tested?
I think that campers should be responsible for their actions and their health, for deciding how they want to spend their day, when they want to sleep, not the camp. What are some other ways to solve the problems Grace mentioned in her letter, which ones are really problems? Could someone post Ari's post on the nbtsc parents list about this?
one point I'd like to add is that there really is no way you can completely avoid people getting sick at just about any summer camp. some people's bodies aren't used to the environment there (mari) I'm against the bedtime, even though not getting enough sleep does make it a lot more likely you'll get sick (sleep deprivation actually does have pretty serious effects on your immune system). The combination of too little sleep and all those new germs you're exposed to is definitely a bad one. I can't help but remember the skit Taber's group did about how campers get sick. :) I agree with Carrie and others who have said it would change the camper/staffer dynamic for the worse. I think enforcing this rule would be a serious headache...I think there would be a lot of people who wouldn't obey a bedtime rule if there was one, especially since so many campers are returning campers who are quite accustomed to staying up late, even at home. Given the number of staffers and the size of Camp Myrtlewood, it would be hard to make sure everyone went to sleep or was in bed or in a sleeping bag or something at a certain hour, and much of the staffers' time would be spent trying to quiet people down or doing bed checks or whatever they would be doing to see that people followed the bedtime rule. Camp is only a week. Not really a week, actually..it's just five full days. And wow, is full ever the right word! We want to spend as much time awake with our friends as possible, so we feel we've spent more time with them. I think most people stay up late because camp is just too short, and there are way too many cool people to hang out with in a week.
I'm very very very agianst the bedtime. It seems like a little thing, but to me it violates the spirit of camp, unschooling, and the "agreements"/rules that we've always had before. It is forcing someone to forfeit a decision they can make for themselves because you've decided what's better for them. I always stay up at camp because they was I figure it And as everyone else has mentioned, it's really hard to enforce. Are you going to force people to sleep in their cabins so they won't talk? Otherwise, you have a situation (Rhymi suggested this one) where people are talking and hanging out in their sleeping bags anyway, but you can't get up and move from one spot to another for fear of getting busted. I've never ever had a real problem with any of the rules, but I couldn't say that I complacently would "agree" to this one. Is anyone going to send this page to Grace? (~summer)
i don't really like the idea of a bed time. it's suggested that you sleep as much as you need. we are all old and mature enough, i believe to make this decision for ourselves as to when to go to bed.
it's just going to cause stress and unwanted drama i believe. i think that the people that really want their sleep, find a way to get it.
if i'm going to spend that money, for such a short time, with so many amazing people, who i look forward to seeing for so many months...
i'd like to be able to spend the amount of time within the week that i'd like. not to mention- some people like being up at night.
i agree with summer i think this is just to make it easier for them
and making a rule out of it. ugh. i don't like it muchly.:).
I don't like the idea of a bedtime as a rule. I think that a lot of people (me included) stay up late because there's always something interesting going on. Perhaps if there was an enforced quiet rule, like after 2 a.m.... An idea I had recently and have been thinking over is possibly have a buddy system for bedtimes. I know it would help me if I partnered up with someone, and we'd just try to find eachother at 2, or whatever time, and say "It's 2, can you tear yourself away?" Just to have someone who's also going to bed can make it easier. [2] i guess some people think that you can't make up for lost sleep later, but personally it does work for me. When i've gone for a few days without enough sleep, just having a nap for 1/2 hour or less can make the rest of my week much easier. (mari)
[3] There is, sort of. Every day there's a quiet hour where there are quiet workshops, like yoga, and the Sex and Tea talk once this year, and a sleeping workshop, even. :) Somehow I've never managed to take a nap in this time though, even when I'm really tired. I think a bed time is a good idea (I say a because I have no opinion on the best time for such a thing) I have attended several other events with similar energys to camp, which had bedtimes, and in my eyes it worked fine- and maybe even made the energy stronger- because people were fully concious earlier in the day, and so were able to fully participate in the community and activitys. However I don't think a bed time can be instituted at camp without a major uproar, and putting extra stress on staff what with trying to find people scattered all over camp, and monitor to see that people are obeying the rules. And are people going to be required to sleep in their own beds? If not all the above becomes hardr yet, and if so, then the issues become more contentious. I think before such a policy is instituted the issues of how is this going to be enforced? and Why is this a problem? need to be confronted. on the later issue, while people have always stayed up too late and gotten sick, it seems to me that it has become more of an issue in the last couple years. Why? a) last time I was there anyway, (99, sess.1) it seemed as though the message " take care of your self, get sleep, wash hands, etc.etc." not stressed as much as I remember it being earlier years- it needs to be repeated over and over and over- especially in the first couple days before people get sick. b) having two sessions back to back gives people no time to recover- two weeks of sleeep deprivation when exposed to all sorts of new germs. I would definatly support a bed time for anyone who camp puts up over night between sessions- like about 9:30.- Lorin Lorin thinks of annother argument against...though at this late date it sounds like the rule will be put in to effect...What about all the staffers who have to stay up late to enforce the bed time? I don't see it being easy to get people to go to bed at 1:30, so it's gonna take at least one if not two or three staffers up for a good while after that to ensure everyone is in bed. So when are they going to sleep??? Okay, i just got a few things that i wanna say that are mostly just reinforcing what other people have said but i'm still gonna say them. firstly enforcing a bed time would be almost completely impossible without making another rule that people would have to sleep in there bunks in the cabins otherwise the staffers would be constintly out hunting down people in the forest and in the field and telling them to get to bed. also it would totaly decay the trust/respect thing between campers and staffers as a whole bunch of people have said before me. i do admit that staying up that late probably contributes to being sick so much but also i think it's partly the fact that we're a bunch of homeschoolers..who don't spend 5 out of seven days packed in little rooms with 3o other kids..basically we're not exposed to germs on a daily bases like most other kids and so when we get to camp and we have all these people/germs everywhere it causes trouble. and about people missing workshops..well i think that if you look ahead and see that there is a workshop that you wanna do..you should have enough self control to get yourself to bed on time. and another way to get us more sleep would be to just cut down the length of the meetings..they're already too long in mind. so anyways i think a bedtime at camp would royally suck. -Robby Right on Robby!!!! That is so exactly my oppinion, in every way shape and form. I'm going to write something a lot longer later but for now I'll just state my utter and total disgust at the idea of anything resembleing a bed time (ick) and I will state my many reasons for it later. -Susannah I hate this idea! This really seems to go against the grain of what camp is all about. Mutual respect and personal freedoms, or so I thought. Like somebody said up top, this would really strain relations between campers and staff and it would be well- just awful. I think the current rule about lights out and quiet in the cabins is good. We don't have to do what everybody else is doing, if you want sleep don't just stay up because "every body else is doing it". It's a personal responsability thing. If we want to stay up and get sick then that's our problem. One of the one things that is great about camp, is there isn't that traditional scorn on people who do something wrong. Mostly because there isn't much you can do wrong. Being lectured by someone, or punished for not following a bedtime seems ludicrous! Trust was the one thing I really remember being taught at camp, over and over. Where is the trust in us here? If someone feels they're missing out, then they make a choice. You can't go to two workshops at once (I suppose you could, but you wouldn't be able to absorb all of one) you make choices. Lot's of people stay up late, that's their prerogative. Make anti-sick items available readily (tea, garlic, vitamin c, etc) and make sure people pack warm clothes. Also, a slightly later awakening time might be nice. Better to get up late and be wide awake than to get up early and be asleep all day. - Anonymous But don't make us go to bed at some arbitrarily set time. Life is something that happens when you can't get to sleep. - Fran Lebowitz -James I am against a set bedtime because I don't like set bedtimes, and I stay up late every day of the year(all night once in a while, not very offten) I usualy live off 6-7 hours of sleep. as for getting up later, I like the idea, but not too late... I also think that yes, those who get sick, and everyone else, should do what they can to get unsick :) or not get sick. Naps never do me any good, unless I get 1-2 hours of sleep I can't fall asleep in the after noon. anyway! off to not sleep for at least another 1/2 hour -rasin bran(or rasin, or Lord of arrakis, or rael daruszka, or....) Well, I haven't been to camp, so I'm not sure how valid this is... I don't think a set bed time a good thing. The impression I got from former campers was that there is freedom and trust between staffers and campers. I think this is saying that Staffers are not trusting campers to know how much sleep they need, trusting them to get themselves to bed. I don't really have a set bed time at home; I can't, because I'm an insomniac, and I rarely fall asleep until three or four anyway. It varies. But then what am I supposed to do, lie in my sleeping bag all night, feeling lonley and bored? Instead of making new friends, talking, laughing, gazing at the stars? I can understand that people are concerned for one's health, but we can always take precautions. Like the Tea, Garlic, Vitamin C, Wash hands a lot, etc. When I am at home, I sometimes get no sleep, or little, and I have not gotten sick yet. I agree with James: People have to make a choice, I do not think forcing everyone to go to bed earlier than they might on account of some people is a good thing. I also think that it would be impossible to force it since there are so little campers in agreement with it. Towanda to all. *Jekissa* See NBTSCBedtimesTheWorstIdeaSinceSlicedFingers to read the letter Zack will be sending to Grace and The Staff about this. (I'll be sending it off with as many signatures of support as I can get on THURSDAY APRIL 5TH. I am really mad right now about other things so I am just going to say that this idea blows on so many levels. - Huck NBTSWikiWiki | Recent Changes Edited 48 times, last edited on April 6, 2001 by zakarria@nbtsc.org. © 2000 NBTSC Webmasters |
none of this is final yet, and as always we're interested in any comments or concerns you have. At this point one idea we are kicking around is to have a 1:30 bedtime every night except the last, when we'd probably make it more like 4 a.m."
