MEAT

Describe MEAT here. (meat is murder) (meat is also life, for many animals)

yeah, we don't have a place for discussing vegitarianism yet! What is your diet? Why do you choose that? Etc etc...

The poor....little....baby....cows! Ducks! Chickens! Sheep! Pigs! -Kathleen (who is vegitarian, needless to say)

I am a vegan and a raw-foodist. I beleive that animal products, and cooked food are bad for the human body. And the first humans were vegan and raw-foodist because they didn't have the weapons to kill other aniamals and they didn't have the fire to cook their food.

JesseBorges

 *Hi!  That's really interesting, but I am rather clueless on the matter! 
What do you eat?  I mean, obviously raw foods...  But what would you eat in
a typical day, for example? - Emma

Hi Emma! I enjoy my diet very, very much. Uncooked, unprocessed fruit and nuts are all that I would ever want or need. Fruit is perfect. Fruit contains everything you need. What do I eat in a typical day? Well yesterday, for example, I opened a durian(the best fruit in the world) and it took me all day to eat since their so big! I also ate some pineapple and some sprouted nuts and some tomatos from my garden. And I though together a fruit smothie made with baby coconut and assorted fruits. I dont cook things because that destroys the enzimes and basicly makes the food useless. I don't see any reason to alter something thats already perfect! But anyway, its great, and I couldn't feel better. The best part about it is that I dont have to harm or kill anything. I'm not even killing plants, since fruits and nuts arn't the actaul plant, they just grow on it. :)

JesseBorges

Thanks! - Emma

I also have a question: I'm vegetarian, and I've been contemplating this lately. What to do when you're at another person's home? Do you refuse food? Isn't that rude? Negative energy/harming bodies. ??

I am not a vegitarian. I try not to eat meat, especially red meat, but since I'm not that good at making sure I get enough protein and vitamins and all that stuff, I eat what gets put in front of me. Which isn't red meat that often. I really hate the methods of cattle farms and beef processing places. (I never eat mutton or pork, because I don't like the taste.)

I'm curious... for all you alternitive eaters, do you like the taste of meat but have given it up anyway? How do you make sure you get enough protein and stuff? Is it hard to focus on what you eat so much? -marina

another little note thingy: I just looked at the FSEAA page about eating fish, and it raised a question for me. Where do you draw the line? I know some people don't eat red meat but eat chicken and fish, some people just eat fish, some people only eat raw food, one person I met said she never ate anything with a face... but if you're trying not to hurt any organisms, where do you draw the line? Are sardines thinking creatures? Are plankton? Are bacteria? What about plants? Are trees living thinking creatures? How do you choose what to eat based on that?

another note on my personal eating habits: I'm ok with eating things that were once alive and all that... but thinking that I'm eating something that has been raised for the sole purpose of me eating it makes me feel sick.

• Protein: The average american eats 25% more than their daily reccomendation. The reccomendation is about 25% over reality (though that's probably psychology). There are people who need more protein than others (people who naturally "bulk up", that is, grow muscles, need more protein than usual. That aside, we over-do it. Complex carbohydrates, for most people, are the way to go. The flip side to this is, you digest carbohydrates faster. You have to eat more often. Remember, though, when you were probably told that more, smaller meals were healthier? They were right...

• Taste: I never really liked meat...pretty easy to give up. I do miss pepperoni though that's not a meat-taste, that's a pepper-and-smoke-and-all-that flavour... for that reason, I don't like most meat-substitutes, but love fake perpperoni (though they never spice it enough...)

Ooh, the protein thing..my mom is big on protein..

I'm not really vegetarian I eat fish, though I don't go out of my way to do so or anything. I just can't give up the stuffed salmon things the Central Market makes. :P I became (almost) a vegetarian several years ago...I liked the taste of meat, I just didn't like the idea of it. Fishes I have never empathized with, though, obviously. :) I've been really bad about what I eat lately..lots of junk! Ugh! For me for protein, there's lots of soy stuff, and Balance bars are great if you don't have time for a meal (or to take to long rehearsals!). I take vitamins; normal ones, vitamin Cs, calcium, and the occasional B-12 supplement. - Emma

I love meat. I love cheeseburgers. I think the way they kill the animals is kinda bad. but I haven't done that much research on it (and frankly I don't give a crap), so I'm not a vegetaran. vegetables are too bland for me. I like stuff with a taste to it. meat has really good protein in it. so why deny it, if your body needs the protein? I've noticed that meat eaters are generally stronger. they have a stronger emune system. vegetarians are weaker. they're used to just having vegetables. and so they don't get some of the protein they need, and they're weaker(no offense to all you vegetarians). if I don't eat anything, it's not because of my morals. it's because of my taste in food. I don't eat much fish, because I don't like fish that much. but I love meat. and I'm not going to stop eating it just because the animals are mistreated. -Lydia ®

• I find it odd that you can find it wrong, and do it anyway. Why don't you apply your morals.
• Immune systems? Hmm. I wonder what makes you say that... any evidence?
• Strength. The reason that most hard-core vegetarians are "weaker" is because a more slight build tends to lean itself to being vegetarian eiasier. (And a heavier build tends to need more protein... see my "protein" entry above. Not to say that there's not vegetable sources of protein.)

for one. my morals aren't that strong, I don't believe that killing something just because is that nice of a thing to do, but I'm going going to go bitch about it constantly. second, immune systems as far as I know, build up the immunity from getting the wrong things at some point. if you were a vegetarian and you have never eaten any meat product and then had one bite of a piece of chicken or bacon or beef or whatever, what's going to happen, is it's going to be hard to disgust and you'll probably get an upset stomach. third. I don't like being told to change my diet, and I don't like being critized for it. if someone asks me why I eat meat, I tell them because I like it, and it is a good filler and it has proteins that your body needs, and we as a species were made to eat meat. and I grew up on meat. and as I said, I like it. and I'm not going to stop just because they're mistreated, and are bred to become food. and that's all I have to say about that. -Lydia ®

• I grew up vegitarian, and am now an Oportunarian. I don't generally buy meat or keep it in the house, but if I am visiting somone and they put meat in front of me I don't refuse it. I din't have a problem with meat the first time I had it. As a matter of fact I even sort of enjoy the taste of meat (red even) now and then. I occasionally have problems if I eat a lot of it for several days, but a little bit doesn't bother me. That's not really how your imune system work... If for some reason somthing in what you eat bothers you, then yes the imune system will kick in, but meat is what? Protien and stuff, which if you've been eating healthily your body should have already expirienced from other sources.I suppose there are probobly hormones and stuff in there, and I'm sure that there are people who do have strong reactions to meat, but I wouldn't call it a universal problem with vegitarianism.

I suppose the fact that I had been eating fish occasionally most of my life could have an effect on my bodys reaction... -Lorin

I'm an omnivore. I eat eat fruit, vegetables, grains and yes, meat. The meat my family eats is organic and range-fed, so I don't feel as guilty eating it as I might if I knew that the animals had been horribly mistreated.

I don't believe, in general, that eating animals is a "bad" or morally wrong thing. The food chain has existed since the beginning of time; it doesn't seem to me that something that has flourished for so long should suddenly be "wrong". I've heard arguements that state that human beings, since we have a supposedly "higher consciousness" should be above killing other creatures, and maybe this is true. But I don't think that killing something because you need to eat is immoral.

I do think that the way many animals raised for food are treated is cruel. Every being should be able to experience joy and health for as long as they live, whether that be 2 months, 2 years, or 200 years, and a lot of commercially raised animals never get that chance. Still, there are many ways to make a statement, and veganism and vegetarianism are just two choices. Mine is another.

One thing I really, really hate is when strangers make judgements about Amy, the person, based on what Amy, the person, eats. That doesn't seem fair at all, and I truly resent "food snobs". Choices are choices, and we all make them. Good or bad, right or wrong. . . . sometimes things work and sometimes they don't. But in the end, we're all people, and I think that that should be remembered above all else. Amy

• Just as a pointer i think saying that somthing that has exised for thousands of years can't just suddunly be wrong brings up a point. What about the treatment of women as a mans property? As not being smart enough to think for them selves. To not be alowed to show them selves in public? Think about it.

• I don't think that's a good comparison. The foodweb is not only a lot older than sexism, it's also more universal. I don't know of a single human culture that's historically not eaten meat, although there have been religious groups of people who have not. There have been many human cultures where women have not been treated as male property or as second class people, although there haven't been any without gender differences. See the gender debate on nbtsc-l, early fall of 1998. There's also no obvious alternative to the foodweb as a whole, even if humans could be pried from their current place in it. Someone's always going to be eating some one else, quite possible someone else sentient. That's life. - Julie(lipse

In response to Amy, that's pretty much how I eat, and why. I don't especially care for the taste of most meat. I don't eat much meat, but I'm definitely not a vegetarian because I value flexibility and diversity. I would have personal moral issues with refusing a friend's offer of food just because it happened to have meat in it. At the same time, I do not want to support factory food raising practices. I do not want to support unhappy animals raised only from meat, I do not want to support the disgusting, inhumane working conditions that face human slaughterhouse workers (yes, eating animals can hurt human beings... want to hear about it?). I do not want to support unsustainable land use. I do not want to support pesticides, antibiotics, hormones, or unlabeled, untested genetic modification. I believe that these things are wrong, and I make an effort to live by my beliefs, and to understand the infrastructure that surrounds my daily life. I buy as much organic food as I can afford. I want to support sustainable practices, I want to support people who are doing what they love, I want to support food that tastes good, I want to support full disclosure to consumers, I want to support diversity of choice. I try to know the companies I'm buying from. Even better if it's locally produced, and best still if produced by me, my family, or someone I know. Here at college, that sort of thing is a real luxury, but later I hope to grow and barter for most of my food. I buy cage-free organic eggs always (I'm biased by my love of chickens, which are very sweet, personable creatures), local organic amish cheese when I can. While I could be vegetarian if I so desired, I do not think I could be vegan, owing to my years of raising laying hens. AFAIC, eating unfertilized eggs from well loved free-range hens could not possibly be hurting anyone. My cooking tends to be vegetarian, and is occasionally vegan. I make as much from scratch as possible. I eat pretty healthily, although I have a soft spot for Ben & Jerry's. Oh, and I also think that eating insects is a great idea. These are all very personal choices, BUT they were not made by mere flight of fancy.

It's interesting that there have been a couple of posters here who have pre-emptively (IMO) spoken against judgeing others by how they eat and moral righteousness over food choices. Do y'all have stories about being uncomfortable because of preachy or holier-than-thou vegtypes? As has been discussed elsewhere, food is an emotional issue... but I think that's why it's important to think about and talk about and bring into ethical considerations. Is the defensiveness really necessary? I mean, DUH, different people make different choices, you shouldn't judge someone based on what they eat, you shouldn't tell someone else how to live. Do y'all feel that there are people here specifically that don't act as if that were the case? At any rate, try and preserve the balance between tolerance of differences and relative morality. What you eat and why and where it comes from is important! If you think it's "just food," try going without it for a while!

   -- Julie(lipse

Heres my view on things. I don't have a problem with eating meat. We are omnivores. However due to the way meat is raised i don't eat it. Perhaps somday i will raise, kill, prosses and eat my own meat but iI think that if somone can't handle that they shouldn't eat meat. At the moment i do eat a little bit of fish every know and then but not often. I don't think the whole protien thing is a problem.

i don't live my life for animals, i live it for me. that makes me selfish. okay. if i had a problem with the emotion provoked when i eat meat, i wouldn't eat meat. it is wrong to eat meat if you don't want to eat meat. it is right to do what feels right. it is pointless to tell others how to live their lives. you could call me a murderer, if you want. i don't think there is anything wrong with eating animals. i eat turkey, duck, chicken, and fish. anyone who says fish isn't a meat is just making excuses. but do what you like. i don't eat red meat, because it makes me feel like shit and i'm not particularly fond of the way it tastes. except for bacon. mmmmmmm... i don't have beef with veggie-heads. (heh heh.) i don't have a problem with carnivores. i just don't like people telling others what to do. it's food, and there are more important things. you can choose to focus all your energy on what you put into your body, but in many cases the emotional and mental stress caused by that is enough to out-do the good done by your Holy diet. but, do what you like. yeah, i happen to think cows and pigs are really sweet, and have potential for personality. i think chickens and turkeys are freaking stupid. but that's no excuse. i don't eat stupid people. so yeah. i am what i am, and i eat what i eat, but i am not what i eat. word up.

                               -moth

• "It is right to do what feels right"? That's a pretty strong statement, philosophically and all.

I am not a vegetarian. I am a -Not-A-Very-Meatatarian-. I limit my consumption of all types of meat (from seafood to redmeat) based on how I feel. I usually only get meat nowadays when I'm at a resturant and would like something with fish or chicken. While I do not at all condone or approve of how livestock is generally treated, I have not completely eliminated meat from my diet. However, I do just fine on a vegetarian diet, and it wouldn't be *too* much of a stretch for me to give it up completely. Still, I think, in moderation, it's just fine. The people I get bugged by are the ones who eat meat as their main dish, every day. I almost never eat meat as a "main dish" anymore, and when I do eat meat, I feel like I appreciate it and the animal it once came from much more.

OPTIMALLY, if I were to eat meat, it would be that I hunted it or fished it myself. Wild game is always a far healthier meat than domesticated animals and infinitely more "connected" than going to the grocery store and picking out a packaged and emotionless slab of whatever. That's one thing we've lost over the years, it's the vital notion of the hunter. Modern hunters aren't much better though, they're seperate from their prey, they feel infinitely superior to that which they kill, from a distance, with their precision gun or modern bow.

Right now, one of the only reasons people can so easily have vegetarian-only diets is simply due to our ability to transport all types of plant-based foods all over the world to our own kitchens. Sure, it's even easier to have a balanced diet with vegetables now than it ever has been in the past, but this is only because of our reliance on the fruits of civilization (no pun intended). Before civilization, basically any period before 10,000 years ago, people ate both meat and vegetables and things were good, and balanced. I understand why people are becoming vegetarians now, though. Our world has become unbalanced and everyone is taking notice. Animals have become so foreign to us, it has become a disgrace and a disgusting habit simply to ingest them. Our fear of our annihilation has absorbed us and we want to act! We've gone so far in our creation of civilization we find many of us acting against the things that we see as immediate wrongs: violence, racism, drugs, animal cruelty. But I can't see how eating meat is *wrong*... unless I thought that I'm above the animal, more powerful, more intelligent, more in every way. I'm not even any better than the lowly plant. We all die, sometime. It's our death that makes us the same. So, when everything is equal I can't as easily feel that I'm doing something wrong. NOT that I mean it doesn't matter with what we do. It just means that things are equal, which is quite profound and obvious when you think about it, or have it explained better than I have.

Vegetarianism is certainly a start in the right direction. It's a start in the changing of minds, of worldview, which is mostly what this topic is about (anyone who read Ishmael knows that the world is what it is because food is under lock and key). But, I wouldn't go so far as to say that vegetarianism or veganism is the only right thing to do. Thatwould be wrong.

-Luke and his honest opinion

M.E.A.T.

Mildly Enraged Armadillos Tango

Mean Eels Ate Taffy

Musky Edible Armpit Treats - Jacopo Belbo, cynical madman

Miles Even After Twilight Mewing Eels Adverse Trimaran. (better know how to swim) Minuet Elephantine Aardvarks Tease , the forever vegetarian with a weird sense of humor

I eat meat. I like meat. I dont see that this is such a big deal. The only "problem" is with cattle hearders and there use/waste of water. What is lame is when people call me a "murder" or somthing along those lines. There are alot of things that whould be more rewarding and that you chould use your time better then to try and pick apart my diet.

   Now lets talk about what we whould do with the cows, turkeys, pigs ect
ect if we were not riseing them to be food.  None of these animals whould
last in the wild.  They are domesticated so you whould be writing them all
off.  I have no problem with people eatting things or doing things that have
to do with there life.  But please dont go picking apart my damn diet.  

   As far as the size thing goes it does seem that people who do not it meat
are weaker.  I do not have any proof to back this up but that is just from
what I have seen.

-Huck

• I don't know about that, Huck. I've seen many vegetarians who are quite strong and healthy. I am even aqainted with a girl who's vegan and allergic to wheat, yet she does not seem weak at all. Another thing I'd like to point out is that, in reference to size, people tend to grow more when they eat meat because of all those hormones that are pumped into the stuff.

• In my experience, from regarding all my friends, there are (on average) noticeable differences in body structure of Vegetarians. (There has also been multiple studies on the question and I can give book names to anyone who wants them) I have never read any evidence that the added Hormones in animals cause exceptional growth in humans. Allergies, and cancer yes, but not growth. Being Vegetarian or Vegan, it?s no easy deal to incorporate enough Amino acids (the stuff that?s goanna build those mussels) in to ones diet. Not that I don?t think vegetarianism is possible, but it aint easy, and most people really don?t take the time or effort to do it right

Thank you:)-Huck

I admit it, I eat meat. I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I know what these companies are doing to the rainforests and the animals so I can eat this stuff, and I feel bad for "encouraging" them. On the other hand, up until recently I hardly ate anything at all, so the fact that I'm eating three meals a day with lots of protein and stuff that will make me stronger and healthier is really important to me, and DAMN... hamburgers taste so good. Mmmm! And turkey sandwiches are just super. Hehehe. So yeah, you'd think I was vegan cuz I look so fragile (sarcasm) but yes, I am quite the little carnivore. *smirk*

      You can buy meat that is made in the USA.  Is there any better kind?:)
 So you dont need to think about the rainforests.  Also I said I did not
have proof of that it was just somthing I seem to notice. ----Huck

I eat meat. When I'm living on my own, then I don't eat much meat. When I'm living with my family, I eat more. I won't insult them by turning down the food they cook. Eating together is important to me. I will, adjust quantities some, eating more salad, less meat, but I won't reject it totally. At least not yet.

My mom buys cow that was raised locally. I have no guilt over it being murdered, and I know that the rainforests were not harmed by it.

- Christy

I, too, eat meat. I think it tastes good. I don't eat veal, both because the calves are kept in even worse conditions than most grown stock, and because it's really expensive.

I eat eggs and dairy products, too. However, I eat eggs from my own hens, and I'll soon be drinking milk and eating cheese from my own goats, so I'll know that they have decent lives. My goal is to eventually raise all the animals I am to consume, so I'll know that they haven't had horrible lives. Right now I'm just doing what I can to change the way livestock is raised commercially.

I don't have a big problem with the whole "raised to be killed" issue. I do have a problem with the cruel treatment and greed that is prevalent in the livestock industry. [1] That is what I really hope will change.

-Katherine

[1] A question. If a friend of yours was raised by loving, caring people and had the best of lives but was then murdered in the prime of their life, would you say they weren't treated cruelly?

• How were they murdered, and for what purpose? It doesn't really matter that they're murdered in the prime of their life, unless you think that it's somehow better to be killed when you're younger or older than that. If they were murdered for some petty reason, then I would have a problem with that. But if we (my friend and I) lived in a culture where cannibalism was acceptable, and whoever murdered him was doing so out of hunger, and the method of slaughter was quick and as painless as possible, then I wouldn't call it cruel treatment, no. That doesn't mean I wouldn't miss my friend, or that I would think that maybe the hungry people should've eaten someone else, just that I wouldn't call it cruel. I never said my ethics were perfect, though.
• I agree with your point about being murdered in the prime of life as opposed to another time. I shouldn't have used that phrase. You're right, it doesn't matter when it happensmurder is still murder. But I have a few thoughts in response to the rest of what you wrote. 1) That old thing about "if all your friends jumped off a cliff..." In the hypothetical world we're imagining (or any other) why should we go along with "cannibalism is acceptable"? And what would happen if we imagined the same scenario in a world where only some people are cannibals? 2) What if your friend's murderer did it not out of hunger but for profit? What if the he didn't even really need the money, because he'd already made his fortune off of other killings? What if your friend's body was sold to people who had too much food already and most of the carcass was thrown away either because "those bits weren't good to eat" or because "I just couldn't eat a thing more"...? 3) Say your friend somehow escapes from the murderer and goes on to discover the cure for AIDS? Then would it have been cruel to cut short your friend's life? (And I realize that this last part may not be a direct analogy for other animals, but I think the idea does apply in other ways.) -Emerie
• 1. Hmmm. If cannibalism wasn't acceptable, why would my friend be murdered for food? If someone was desperate, they might break social boundaries to supply their basic needs. In that type of situation, I would still not think it was cruel, as long as my friend was slaughtered humanely (meaning, they were killed quickly, as painlessly as possible, and in such a way they my friend wasn't stressed out before their murder. The 'sneak up behind him and shoot in the right place' type of thing.). The same applies with a society where cannibalism wasn't considered completely acceptable but was in use by some. 2. I did say I was against greed, and that was exactly what I was referring to. I don't think that someone should take more than needed, and that means making sure that any edible parts of an animal have been eaten by something before taking another life. If someone cannot eat the rest of an animal, they need to find someone who will before going off to slaughter something else. 3. I would consider it cruel to those who might've been saved by his cure only if the murderer could foresee that consequence of his death when the murder took place. However, your writing suggests that it was some time after his attempted murder that he discovered the cure, so there wasn't any way for anyone to know he would do such a thing, making his murder uncruel in my opinion. Forgive me if I'm not making sense- the antihistamine I took an hour ago seems to be making me rather drowsey. -Katherine

A question for you: It appears you're against the raising of livestock for food, so I'll ask you this: Are you against the cultivation of crops, also? Plants are just as alive as a cow is (though most scientists don't think plants register pain, many of them still die when you harvest the part you're going to eat). I'd venture to say that the corn people grow in their gardens would rather it didn't get killed. -Katherine

• Well... actually, umm... read "The Secret Life of Your Cells" and "The Secret Life of Your Plants". In one of those I can't remember which one, it suggests that plants do have some sort of awareness of what's happening around them... and that plants might not mind being picked and eaten, as opposed to just slowly rotting. Why is it though, that we should think death is so wrong? Christy
• No, I'm not against the cultivation of crops. There are probably more efficient and unharmful ways to go about it, but that's a minor problem. Plants aren't animals. I don't know the exact scientific reasons why, but they're different. And whether or not you eat other animals is an entirely different issue from whether or not you eat plants. -Emerie
• I can't tell which issue you're really against. Are you against raising animals for consumption in the first place, the creation of breeds and domestication of several species just so we could eat them? If you are, then I don't see how it is any different from raising plants for consumption. Carrots are just as scientifically alive as a cow is, and neither carrot nor cow can avoid being slaughtered (or harvested) when the time comes. You grow and raise both in order to eat them. No one can really know whether carrot nor cow entered into this world knowing what their purpose is (No one can scientifically prove anything, anyway. I have my own ideas, but they are only that. Ideas.), but both have the instinct to survive once here. If you're not against the 'being raised for food' issue, then I don't know what we're debating about, here. What do animals have that makes them not okay to eat that plants do not have? There's the ability to register pain, but if the animal is slaughered as quickly and painlessly as possible, should that really be an issue? -Katherine

• I think that a lot of people start to lose their point when discussing the comparative ethics of eating meat or plants (or fungus, although I've never heard of a strict fungusarian < g >). Somewhere along the path of humanity, we began to cultivate crops and raise animals for our ease of consumption. It's this turning the entire world into an assembly line for our benefit that disturbs me. Millions of acres of land are dedicated to our needs, whether that be vegetable or livestock. We've somehow decided that this entire world is ours to use as we please, in complete totalitarianism. I say we do this for our benefit, but that's not true for many people. Our civilization hasn't made things better for perhaps 90% of our world, and although 10% may be happy with the way things are, we may not be. I know this sounds like I'm off on a tangent here, but I'm not. The reason these conversations about food ethics always end up sounding so hopelessly "sided" and controversial is because we're trying to justify something that overall can't be solved just on the basis of what we eat. If I devote myself to veganism, if I continue to work with the system of how we get food, it'll still come from farms where hundreds upon hundreds of acres are in total ownership of people, who chased out any animal species that might harm their crops. And even if the farmer is benevolent to the animals of the area, their homes still had to be disrupted, trees had to be cut, land had to be tilled, fences may or may not have been raised, etc... Who's hurting who by eating meat or by eating veggies is just too difficult, I think, no matter how much science or reason is thrown at it. I'm not against agriculture, though, it can be done far less harmfully and even seamlessly with the rest of our species kingdom, and maybe having animals around like chickens and horses would be just fine. Hunting is one thing that would make me more comfortable with taking an animal's life, so that it may be cherished prey rather than relatively tortured beasts of food from birth.

Hmmm... I just rambled quite a bit. Anyone agree with me or understand my point of view? Anything to add?

-Luke