Okay, the whole masculinity page kind of made me think of this.. but I don't think it's appropriate for that page. What do YOU define as homophobia?
Also see LavenderParlor for general queer-related discussion... I think that the whole thing about pressuring people to kiss other people is a little bit weird. Sure you should never pressure anyone, but when you’re in a game like truth or dare, you’re supposed to follow the dares, and I don’t really think that not being attracted to someone is an excuse. Say you’re a guy, and you’re dared to kiss a girl. So maybe you think she’s not so gorgeous. Well I’ve never heard of anyone saying outright, “I’m not attracted to you so I’m not gonna kiss you.” I don’t really see why it should be different if it’s a guy. It’s just someone else you’re not attracted to. Why should it be any different? Generally, in my case at least, when a guy refuses to kiss a guy it’s because they think it’s gross, straight up. Which is fine, they think it’s gross, whatever, but still, that’s the reason. ~Athena P.S.: I don’t play truth or dare. ( : Maybe it was that his last words to me were "fucking dyke" as i stepped off the bus. Maybe that was what bugged me. I raised my arms to show prominent arm pit hair and grinned at him as the bus pulled away. I felt high as kite on pure adrenaline, holding Tessa, trying to not get run over in Traffic. We had been sitting peacefully on the back seat of the bus when the two prepubescent black young males got on the bus. I knew it was trouble. When we ignored them the quiet rapping and stares became louder, directed at us, muttering comments about dykes and girls. Things i wanted to forget or yell back or vaporize. Why is everything in my life about power? Why does that i was wearing my sturdy bra when i confronted him, matter? Would have had the courage to talk back if i was wearing no bra at all? what is it about floppy breasts that make us so much more... vulnerable? If i was menstruating? Wearing tight pants? been 5 pounds heavier? "This is your life..." I muttered to Tessa as we sat there, listening to them jeer at us. It's a option for me, a choice, a laugh, something i do when i am out with girl friends. Be a Dyke For The Day It isn't for her, she loves another woman, shows it, has a girlfriend. This is her life, to be stared at or openly hated for Who She Loves. To always wonder if the guy who stares at them on the bus is going to get off at their stop and follow them home. In hindsight i try to think of a way out of it that wouldn't have ended in trading snappy comments across the back of the bus. I wish I hadn't been scared. I wanted to move, because it would have been more comfortable but it also would have met that he had won. To admit that some 12 year old punk kid in the back of a metro bus in Seattle managed to scare me.,and made me move. Its' a free fucking country i thought and sat there. I've been through 15 countries in 3 months and never felt as intimidated as all that. Yesh. It's about the mildest form of homophobia one can get, a bit of name calling and teasing from some kids on the back seat of a bus, and it still threw me. I just kept thinking the rest of the afternoon that i hope whatever adult taught those kids to think like that, wasn't watching me right now. So i look like a Dyke. I'll sit on the backseat with my arms around my
friends and wear tight tank tops and not shave *anything* and match your
stares.
Deal with it.
-Dawn
Ps I watch my male friends struggle to understand or help this frustration, fear, this experience i had sitting in the backseat of a Seattle Metro bus. I dont know if i can discribe what fear like that is like. Watching them stare becomes interesting, entertaining. We stand at bus stations with our arms around each other, waiting for the cars to stop and stare... what combination gets the most flat out stares shouts, three girls all standing with their arms around each other, Mitchell in the middle with 3 girls hanging off him, me in the middle with 2 girls and a boy hanging off it, just letting Tess and Robyn kiss and see how much attention we get.. In the daylight it's fun, empowering, a laugh, scare the normal people. but i wonder how i would feel if it was at night. and i was just with one other person, and all we wanted to do was walk home holding hands... Dawn I completely agree with Keely. I think in a lot (though, of course, not all) of cases that's true. Fear of being attracted to someone of your gender, or being ashamed of having been in the past is the leading cause of homophobia, certainly. And I can see what Zen means, too. I don't think I'm homophobic, and I happen (though this is totally unrelated) to be able to think up a few girls I wouldn't mind kissing as well as guys. The thing is, people tend to think that if you're attacted at all to other people of your gender, you're gay, and they like you as a friend, so they must be gay, and that's scary. I think. I don't know, my brain is washed and my stomach is growling. I'll get back to this later. At work the other day Keeley said to me "I think people who are really homophobic all turn out gay". Hmm. The reason I bring this up is that numerous times, people I know (No names, but they're all men) are misunderstood as being homophobic. I think this is completely unfair. It's almost like, if you're not willing to kiss another guy you're homophobic. I've known several guys who have been bought under attack for this, and people even try to force them to kiss another guy. I think that the whole thing about pressuring people to kiss other people is a little bit weird. Sure you should never pressure anyone, but when you’re in a game like truth or dare, you’re supposed to follow the dares, and I don’t really think that not being attracted to someone is an excuse. Say you’re a guy, and you’re dared to kiss a girl. So maybe you think she’s not so gorgeous. Well I’ve never heard of anyone saying outright, “I’m not attracted to you so I’m not gonna kiss you.” I don’t really see why it should be different if it’s a guy. It’s just someone else you’re not attracted to. Why should it be any different? Generally, in my case at least, when a guy refuses to kiss a guy it’s because they think it’s gross, straight up. Which is fine, they think it’s gross, whatever, but still, that’s the reason. ~Athena P.S.: I don’t play truth or dare. ( : Okay.. wait.. hold up.. If you force someone to do something they're uncomfortable doing, isn't that wrong? Is it WRONG to be uncomfortable about kissing someone of the same gender? Or to not be able to understand the attraction to someone of a simular gender? I don't THINK that's the definition of being homophobic is it? And it's not even like these people actually are homophobic. They don't care if someone else is gay, they just aren't themselves. I mean, there are people I wouldn't want to kiss of either gender. A lot more of them are men than women tho'.. is that wrong? I think we, as a society have become so obsessed with accepting bi and gay people, that we almost don't accept straight people any more. Okay, that's a slight over reaction, but the basics of it are true I believe. Comments? -Zen
I have posted on this page a total of four times. Only my first has lasted for more than five minutes, before being saved over. It's great this page is getting so much attention. But it'd be really peachy keen if everyone could get their word in. Lotus said she had the same problem, and I've seen a few other changes lost in the shuffle as well. If you're going to write anything bigger than a line or three on here, the best way to do it is in a different program. Then, when you're done, edit the page, paste, and save. Otherwise, if you write a lengthly [or just ill-timed] post, and then save a dated version of the page. . viola. .all the changes since then evaporate. I agree with a lot of what you wrote. There is deffinately an undercurrent in regards to hazing or razing when it comes to people who just plain aren't interested in the same sex. In my opinion and experience, this is a guy thing. Bisexuality is something guys joke about- a lot. It's a big part of the male stereotype, imo. And when someone doesn't want to join in on "the joke",. . .depending on the disposition of the joking crowd, they're singled out as either homophobes or homosexuals. I think it is a lot less accepted for guys to have sincere sexual contact with eachother than it is for girls. To an extent, I feel that it is encouraged for women, while being conspiciously shunned for men behind a curtain of jokes and ass-grabbing. Why? What are we afraid of? I feel secure in my sexuality. I really don't care what other people think of me for it. Yet I feel an urge and need to write a disclaimer. "I'm not gay I'm not gay!". What the fuck? So what if I was? Why should I have to say that? Why should I feel the need to assure people that I'm not gay? It pisses me off. It's always there when guys seriously discuss homosexuality- we're always quick on the draw when it comes to ". . .but I'm not gay". Are we, as a whole, that homophobic, or that fearful of homophobia? maybe both.
Homophobia - 1. Aversion to gay or homosexual people or their lifestyle or culture. 2. Behavior or an act based on this aversion. Basically in society people think if you aren't open to being sexual with the same sex, your homophobic. What it IS is close to the earlier given definition I believe. A homophobic person to me is the type of person who is one step away from someone prejudiced against gay people. The type of person easily pushed into an act of hate against homosexuals. I'm not homophobic but I have no attraction to men and never once in my life have felt it, which baffles even me. As a result of never having been attracted to males and not wanting to be sexual with them, I've been labeled homophobic. And I'll be fair here, usually the person is joking. But it ties in with Masculinity and men and the whole misconception there. -Spikinzola Bean it's all in the word: phobia. a fear of homosexuals. i don't find it homophobic when a guy doesn't want to kiss another guy, or hug another guy, with the hugging thing, i find that scary & sad because in this society guys are taught that it's not ok to show affection to each other, unless it is accompanied with a back-slap or punching each other lightly. homophobia is a whole different can of worms then being afraid to show affection, or even plain not wanting to, to a person of the same sex. thank you. *bows* glitterpixie Ok. So I've never written on Wiki before but when I came across this and the masculinity page I decided I wanted to make an exception. To be honest this page disapointed me. I'm glad that it exists so there can be some sort of dialog on the subject, but I was surprised by how many people chose to express criticism saying they felt the extent to which people accused others of homophobia was excessive. I agree that some people unjustifiably accuse others of homophobia - just as some people unjustifiably accuse others of all sorts of things. But the logic which reasons that the anti-homophobic movement incourages this behavior or is somehow exceptional among movements because some indiviguals belonging to it exibit this behavior is a logic that doesn't make any sense. I know no one actually said that, but I'm a bit tweaked that on the Homophobia page so many people have choosen to write about homophobia phobia. It's all good, but I hope that the integrity of a movement isn't confused with unpleasant personal experiences. It's an important distiction. Getting a bad taste in our mouth about the gay rights movement because someone calls someone else homophobic since they won't kiss another guy makes as much sense as abolishing football games because some people in the bleachers are mis-behaving. The idea that us straight guys are somehow being oppressed by the anti-homophobic movement is just preposterous. So anyway, instead of documenting our run-ins with stupid people I think it would be useful to fill this space up with an honest in-depth discussion about what exctly homophobia is and how it ties into masculinity. So I should probably talk my talk and offer my own bit, eh? ok. what do I think about homophobia? ....lets see if I can spill some gutz on this one. Well, the fear of homosexuality usually stems from a fear of being homosexual yourself. Ha Ha Ha - Samantha's peas thing is right on. As a man in this particular culture homophobia seems to be part of my heritage which I sometimes find myself unconciously adopting. That bites. Not just cuz homophobia has motivated acts of almost inconcievable brutality and hatred to people we hear about on the news, but also because it makes perfectly healthy people feel unhealthy and self-loathing. And It doesn't just make people who are strictly homosexual feel that way. We are all (as human beings) capable of relating sexually to members of our own sex as well as the other (whether that is our preference is a seperate issue) but because we are all built with that capacity we all sorta have judgements on parts of our sexuality as unhealthy or bad when they are completly natural. I think this is why homophobia has been as successful as it has. By demonizing something many people can see in themselves it plays on our fears. Some people slip into the role of the oppressor in the hopes that it will make them feel less oppressed by their own self-loathing. So........let's get over it people. It's riddiculus to spend our days on the planet dictating to ourselves what is and what is not acceptable for us to want while similtaniously preventing ourselves from finding out. Thats what i gotz to say fer now.Shit, see this is why I don't do wiki or send letters. Once I start writing something I just keep rambling, rambling, rambling......... Evan Okay, first off - thank you Evan for finally writing! Second - I'm personally of the opinion that Zen and Spike and Adam are correct in their criticism of the behaviors of certain girls. Those girls (and I'm one of them, I'm afraid) are being rude and insensitive. I don't believe Zen was criticising the anti-homophobic/gay movement... just saying that some people are taking it too far and perhaps misinterpreting "guyness"/shyness as true homophobia. I mean, it's one thing to not personally want to kiss another person of your own gender, and purely another to exclaim "Eww! I cannot believe those sickos are doing that in public. That is so unbelievebly gross!" But... here is my gut reaction to the issue. I've lived in the San Francisco Bay Area all my life, so I've grown up in a pretty darn liberal state of mind, surrounded by people of the same. I see white men subbordinate to black women in the workplace; I see women walking down the street with hands in each other's back pockets; I see nudists and Hare Krishnas talking amiably at crosswalks. The only thing I don't ever really see is men being physically affectionate in the least with each other, even as friends. And it's always bugged me! Why, in such a seeming accepting, liberal atmosphere, can't men brake down the barriers just a little bit more than in the "real world"? Same thing with Camp, except perhaps more so because of the surreal, loving atmosphere created by a bunch of crazy teenagers who only have one week to get to know and befriend each other. (Granted, guys are more comfortable with each other around Camp. I'm not debating that.) And then there's the "lesbian chic" issue. It is widely considered "hot", if not generally accepted, for two girls to be physically affectionate in that way. At Camp, I don't think the fact that a lot of girls enjoy each other's romantic company is even questioned anymore. So every now and then, when ye olde double standards become apparent, I think a lot of girls get frustrated with some of their more old-fashioned, less comfortable male friends... hence the "kissing thing". Now, I know it's just the generalizations of "guys" and "double standards" and "society" I/we have problems with. (Actually, I don't think it's so much of a big problem as we just think it's funny.) We don't have personal issues with our guy friends' lack of affection for each other. I think a lot of the time, we're taking out our frustration with the above-mentioned general concepts on the nearest target. I appologize, guys. I know most of you are not truely "homophobic" - I know it's a loaded term, like "racist", and should be used accordingly. Here's my personal definition of homophobia (or more specifically, men's aversion to other men being sexual with persons of their own gender): "I don't like peas and I'm glad I don't like peas, 'cause if I liked peas I would eat them, and I hate peas!" And, as always, people's personal opinions and preferences are their own. I take much more seriously homophobic action and harmful, judgmental words. -Samantha P.S. Is it just me, or is this currently the fastest growing page on wiki? adam, you wrote something that struck me, about how it seems more genereally acceptable for women to have sincere sexual contact with each than it is for men. this is one of my pet peeves, we could say. it seems to me that this society is unfair to homosexual men. women who are lesbians or bi-sexual seem to have it alot easier alot of the time. (i am NOT saying that all women with same sex prefereances have an easy time all the time, in the least. i understand that that is a struggle at times too) but it seems to me that for a women to come out and show the world that she is a lesbian or bisexual~well, i guess it just seems more easily accepted. and as samantha says~ i am one of those girls who has tried pusshing guys into kisses and stuff. i'm sorry. it's not fair at all. girls who don't like girls, it's just kind of like, well, she doesn't like girls. when a guy doesn't like guys, it alot more often gets pulled off as them being homophobic. when someone truly hates because of another sexual prefereance, obviously that is wrong, hateful and to be discouraged, and have action taken against that mindset. but we need to differentiate between that(homophobia)and just not being attracted towards the same sex. this is entirely too broken up and confusing, but i'll post it and maybe come back later to clear it up when i have more time and more thoughts. peace~sarah c~ so... is homophobia gender-specific? i mean.. i've met a lot of women who are die-hard against homosexuality, be it between two males or two females. don't they get prosecuted just as harshly? or not? also.. and saying this is scary, because at times it seems that everything is taken as an attack. i don't attack.. i talk. i'm not a lesbian. i'm not bisexual. i have no sexual attraction to women.. i'm a little christian girl. i was raised to think it was 'wrong'. 'unnatural'. whatever you want to call it. throughout my life i have ascertained for myself that rather than it being generally 'wrong', homosexuality is wrong for me. it would be wrong for me to choose (because obviously, not being homosexual, in my case it would be a choice..) to experiment with people of the same sex, simply because of who i am and my feelings toward it. but.. that doesn't make it wrong for anyone other than me, and that does not enable me to judge or tell others how to live their lives. granted. but the fact still remains within me that i am not homosexual.. and being that i am straight, i do not fully understand the entire mindset behind being gay/lesbian. i don't know how i feel about it, think about it, whatever, are you born this way, is it a choice, i don't know.. i just know that it doesn't change their being a living, breathing, loving human being in my eyes. sure, it changes how i interact with them. as does their taste in music, political views, religious backgrounds, anything that makes them who they are. my only beef with homosexuality is when people commercialize and exploit it. it's like, they turn it into a fashion, a trend.. i think it takes away from the sincerity of it, turns it from a way of life and a real thing, to a way to get attention, a way to be cool. why does this bother me? simply because if homosexuality is love, why does it need to be so boastly voiced? the whole gay pride thing. it rubs me the wrong way, but it would be the same way regarding anything else.. of course, i'm underinformed as usual, and don't know half of the reasons behind Gay Pride movements, being equal rights, and all the other elements involved which i'm over-looking.. what i'm trying to say, is that i think some people see this movement and find themselves intimidated by the largeness of it. i think it's true that if i were male, anyone could easily choose to read what i've written above and accuse me of being homophobic, simply because i've voiced my opinion, and stated that i am not homosexual. i could be be accused of the same thing now.. but maybe people would feel differently if i weren't female. it is those people themselves who give too much emphasis to gender-standards in our society. but really, it's hard to be honest on such touchy subjects, even if what you're saying is in no way degrading or depreciating the importance of the subject at hand.. like all the stuff i've said :) so it's an individuals choice to either be extreme and take every little thing offensively, or it's your choice to be accepting of all behaviour, realising that everyone feels different ways for different reasons. not everyone can be homosexual, or think that it's the best way to be. it's sad that people let it get in the way of how they function with others. i like the idea of sexuality being a sacred, personal thing, but.. that's just me. some people feel differently, and that's okay too. i'm not homosexual. i'm naomi. naomi could be homosexual.. but she isn't. naomi has a lot of friends who are homosexual.. that's okay with naomi. that's okay with naomi's friends. can't we all just get along? just talking and missing my point completely...
-moth
Thats a good point you made there Naomi. I think everyone overreacts about just about everything and that this is the core of many problems. To me though, the only thing that bothers me about homophobia is the whole gay pride thing and men who are totally petryfied of being Masculine or unattracted to men and believe that all men have to be attracted to men otherwise they've been conditioned somehow. I am not repulsed by homesexuals and my lifestyle as a child wasn't an anti-gay raising so to speak, but I'm straight and I don't want to be sexual with other men because to me there's no feeling, no instinctual longing. But, expanding on just what it is and how it ties in with Masculinity, I believe Homophobia is when you have been conditioned and believe it is wrong to be sexual with people of the same sex. Where your mind has been closed off to being gay and you perhaps see them as less than you. It is also derived from fear of being seen as less among your peers or fear of not being a 'real' person. It ties into masculinity because masculinity and homophobia are both chiefly taught by authority figures who instill as much fear as popular in the youths mind because of their own fears. Homophobia, though perhaps not masculinity, probably came from religion in times where most everyone was religous and was afraid of some gigantic dude who lived above them (which isn't possible because the earth is a globe. Unless he's really frikkin wide) would zap them with lightning or something if they did anything wrong. A lot of men's raising is based upon fear, and they then instill fear later in life upon others, usually their children, thus completing the cycle. I don't think that most women I've met understand that. As a child, most of my life was being scared shitless of my mother and father. Perhaps it did have an affect on my sexuality, I don't know. I do know that fear is the main thing that molds kids into homophobic, 'macho' guys. It seems I've talked in a circle sort of. I'm getting confused. The main point I'm making is that homophobia is tied into masculinity strongly, but only as typical male masculinity, not true masculinity. Ok then, more on this later. -Spike #@$#@!%%!%# ok THATS IS I'm taken it as a sighn, (lotus trying for the ****5ht**** time to post her thoughts When I see a scenario of guys being pressured by other guys to be physical, I think that IS homophobia. Not the people being pressured, but the ones pressuring them, the fact that they pressure them, stems from a homophobic culture.
I think it was Adam who said earlier that Bisexuality is treated as a joke (*Especially* for guys) Totally true. It?s the kiss kiss-ass slap-isn?t that cute?? Mentality keeps people from taking Homosexually seriously or having to think about it too much. So the ones that don?t join in because their not comfortable with it or because they think making light *is* homophobic or because they know who they are and don?t give in to per pressure, what ever it is their the ones who get persecuted. And sometimes it *is* because there are working out there own sexual side (which I think is what the rout of homophobia is, the fear of something hitting a little too close to home) and sometimes it aint, but hey they could be so we?ll blame um all.
Now having said that, I?ll relate a story from the ?other? side;
I throw a big unschoolers party around Halloween every year and this last October (after a particularly draining game of Intellectual Truth or dare) we decided to lighten the post power-shuffle type mood, by playing some passing games. We did oranges, playing cards, balloons, got really competitive and laughed our butts off. Being a bit of a sexual tension game like spin the boodle (but a hellova lot more fun says I) I explained all the rules so everyone knew what they were getting in to, passed out playing pieces and took my place as teem caption. We had about an equal number of guys & girls, but this didn?t stop people from occasionally getting ?stuck? next to someone of the same gender. And so the games began, and we cheered our teem members on as various objects were hurried around the room, we found one problem. A couple guys, who kept dropping nearly all objects as they hurried to pass to the next *guy* with as little physical contact as possible, hence causing us to start over from the beginning! This continued to happen through out the reminder of the game, and I will admit to getting mildly annoyed. I could understand them not being attracted to each other, I wasn?t attracted to a lot of people I was playing with, but I couldn?t imagine being so turned off by them that I couldn?t play.
So I?m looking back on it now and wondering if I was at all in the wrong by not, simply being careful to place them next to girls every single time. If there not cool with something that?s fine, they wont get any slack from me, but why play if your going to need special treatment?
In any case, I know I wasn?t being homophobic by getting annoyed at them. But maybe I was being overly sensitive and in fact, pressuring them to be people they weren?t, just by getting annoyed. I still don?t think so, but I?m open to suggestions.
Now having that I think this page was about homophobia, I think? not straight pressure to be more gay, or what have you. What I mean is that there are kids getting tied to fences naked, pistil whipped, and left to die (and I don?t need to tell you this cus I know you already know it) and it?s understandable that people can go in the opposite direction and be really pushy about a cause. Then I know guys who are so adamantly anti-homophobic that they are more swishy and fruity then their nature would normally indicate just to prove where they stand in the world, and that?s not right either. The thing is, that no matter who your talking about who pressuring who to do what, I guess it doesn?t matter because it all comes back to homophobia and proving either to your self or someone else where you stand on the subject.
?Can't we all just get along?? Is the perfect ending. Knowing ones self and not taking out ones fears about yourself or the world on other people.
Of course I couldn?t just make a short post.
i don't agree at all that there's some kind of huge pressure from society to *not* be homophobic. most of the really liberal, accepting people i've met are all about gaybashing. in subtle ways like criticizing a guy by calling him a sissy or a pussy or fruit or whatever, mostly. but you know what, people are scared to death of the idea that two men might feel attracted to each other, or that a woman might want to express herself in a masculine way. sure it's cool to be a bi girl, *if* you have long hair and wear makeup and let a guy have a threesome with you. come on people. this society has a long way to go before we can say that guys are pressured to kiss each other except by a very small minority. i think the most important thing is to accept that other people are different from you, and while you might think being gay is gross, other people think being straight is completely unappealing. and THEN you can start working on whether you personally might be interested in the same sex. but it's silly to worry about that issue until the more general gay-bashing issue is over with. -jenny *I agree with Jenny- Having grown up in rural western WI, I don't see any presure from society to not be homophobic either. Maybe in larger urban areas there is, but in rural america, homophobia is still the norm. Even in the more liberal communitys. In my community I think it was sort of acceptable for two girls to walk around with arms around eachothers shoulders, etc.- but the usual reaction (from guys) was "hmm. I wonder if I can get myself a threesome?" Guys being afectionate at all beyond slaps on the back is a shocking thing for the most part. I see homophobic behavior even from the children of people who I would have expected to raise there children in an open and accepting manner. It gets ingrained by school mates, teachers, coaches... And there are gay men in our community who are fairly open about it- and good friends with these kids parents. -Lorin *Totally, Lorin. I've lived in central WI my entire life, and that's the same attutude that prevails here as well. The schools are the worst. Anyone who's even a little different is gay- simple as that. I don't know how many times I've been called a faggot up here. I know families where "damn" is unacceptable, but "faggot" is a perfectly acceptable curse. There is no anti-homophobia up here. There is no gay-rights movement. I've heard it's different down by Madison, so maybe Wisconsin isn't a total cesspool. --Adam Guys, I dont' think that was the point. The pressure isn't from socioty in general, but from our socioty. The camp socioty of open and accepting cool people. The whole issue, for me started, in Truth or Dare, when it was ok for two girls to be dared to kiss eachother (wether or not they were attracted to eachother) but not for two guys to be dared to kiss eachother. The reason they gave was that it isnt accepted for guys to be affectionate to eachother as much as it is for girls to be. This is true, to a point. But in T or D if you are playing, you should be ready to be game for anything, includeing kissing someone you're not attracted to. I guess eventually the pressure for guys to kiss, moved out of T or D (pixie sticks etc.)and into the rest our world. And if that's making some people uncomfortable, I'm sorry. No one should have to do anything they're uncomfortable with. Because I'm used to kissing girls (just as friends, not that sexually at all), and because I've never felt any pressure not to be gay, I'm not sure I can identify with where you're comeing from. But as guys in gereral tend to be a lot less affectionate with eachother, I could see how kissing eachother would be a more dangerous, sexual thing and less of a light friendly fun thing, and that would make it more uncomfortable. I think that's also why the pressures there. Because we,annoying girls in general, want to see you, boys in general, make a big personal step, much more dramatic and fun to watch. Superficial, yes, but also true. So, yeah, people, even our wonderful camp people can be really insensitive, and thank you for bringing our attention to that fact. -Susannah hey anyone think of the fact that HomoPhobia might not be the perfect place for a conversation discussing how some guys feel pressured into not being homophobic? i'm trying not to be insensative, but this is bugging me. homophobia is a very serious issue people deal with everyday. and yes, it sucks if you feel pressured into something you feel uncomfortable with, but not being homophobic is not something that could possibly be wrong, even if there's pressure on you to not be "homophobic"... (and no, i dont define not being homophobic as being forced to kiss people you don't want to. that's rather obnoxious... although i agree that it's stupid to refuse to kiss people to the same sex in a truth or dare game.) What about real homophobia? what about homophobia in our lives? what abour our own homophobic tendencies? ~jennyrose
--------------------------------Evan
I don't think a new page needs to be made. Our conversation so far has focused more on replies to the initial post by Zen, but it has spawned off in different directions. We're exploring different facets of the subject. . .Frankly, I think it's too big of a monster to lure into an alley and whack with a lead pipe. It's a gigantic subject, and it deserves to be bludgeoned from multiple angles and sources.
We're just getting started here.
I don't think we can talk about homophobia (or the lack thereof... uh, not) at camp without acknowledging that we all live in the real world when we're not at camp, and that the real world is constructed on the basis of power dynamics: dynamics which have to do with how we wear our gender and who we are perceived as choosing to fuck. Camp is an idyllic space apart from the "real world", but we also bring that world with us. Jenny, your post was a breath of fresh air. It may be hip to be bi at camp, especially if you're young and feminine and giggly, but it's not hip to be queer in most of the rest of the real world. Including urban areas. I have had too many friends raped and beaten up and threatened for their gender expression and perceived sexual identity to talk lightly about this. I felt really queer at camp. Really queer. Some people respected that about me (I'm thinking of Samantha, but there of course are others); some people respected me and that was simply included (Zen, the triad, etc.). But overall I felt like I couldn't talk about that part of my life, not at camp. A lot of that was being a Staffer and not a Friend, which is a healthy and appropriate boundary. But some of that was also how camp felt What I'm getting at I'm trying not to be snide, but I'm not sure how well it's working. "Homophobia" There. Happy, Evan? :) Jessica I grew up in the so-far-left-of-center-they're-going-to-fall-off community in Vancouver, homophobia never occured to me. my "coming out" mostly involved remembering to mention it if people assumed otherwise. which they usualy didn't. and then I fell in love with mar and we wandered around together and it was a different city. suddenly when you hear steps behind you, it is ominous, yes they really do hate You. huh? hit that learning-curve at a run. but it was so intensely hard to believe it, somewhere in the deep dark inside bits of me is my childhood assurance that everyone is truly sweet and awesome and just needs a smile to be in a good mood. right, until they catch you. the unbelievable stress of that relationship just about killed me, because it dropped all my pretty filters. I used to get on a bus and look at all those folks and make up lives for them, some sad and some dark, but the people I saw were always the honest decent sweet heroes in their stories. and then suddenly I got on a bus with mar and all those unknown people stared and glared and sneered and shifted away, and we had to watch which ones followed us off and we had to watch if someone walking along the street looked angry because they might just swing a punch or follow us home. And I feel like "the other shoe" is going to drop soon somehow. So many of us are cornered and beaten to death, so many of us are grabbed and raped in alleys. when will it be me? my darling mar taught me how many people are hostile, but the history of the community has taught me how far those people will go. because I fuck girls too. because bisexuality in me is more than het-boy-porno-queen. will they always hate us? maybe I want to broadcast every single facet of my queerness out into the world and stick it their faces. maybe I want to melt into the ground and never love anyone again. if you don't fuck anyone, they can't judge you by it. -Miranda
I just want to say that my intent of this page was never to discredit or take importance away from the issue of homophobia. I don't believe that straight people are being opressed in any way. It's just, the issue of homophobia-phobia has been on my mind as of late due to certain generalizations some people have made about some of my friends, and while it certinally isn't as big of an issue (Or in fact really an issue at all at this point) it was something I was looking for opinion on. I also never really liked the idea of not being able to talk about something just because something else is more important. Which brings me back to the reason I started the masculinity page (which lead into this one).. feminity and sexism against the female gender is such an important and talked about topic in this day and age that it seems (to me anyways, this is purely from my own experiance) that you can't really talk about masculinity and sexism against men without someone saying "How can you say women have sexism against men? What about all the sexism towards women?".. Anyways, I think Jessica made some very good points... the issue of homophobia really is a important topic and shouldn't be taken lightly. More later. -Zen First. Miranda: Wow. You are radness. Big props and hugs to you. But "intersexed" has an existing meaning: someone with indeterminately gendered genitals. Maybe the word you want is "transgender": someone who doesn't fit into the Girl box or the Boy box. I like "shape-shifter", which has a similar meaning but doesn't necessarily reference gender.
Zen: I appreciate what you wrote. I do cop to being a wee bit sensitive when it comes to homophobia and such. I'm interested in your original idea for this page maybe a different page name? "HomoPhobiaPhobia"? I wish the phone in my new apartment were hooked up, so you could call me on Friday (my birthday) and say "It's totally your birthday." Hee hee. The Great Swami Jessicananda Witchanandababycakes I do not have the time right now to read every entry on this page but I think I get the general idea. homophobia I think is a very closed minded and hateful act, however there are lines where homopobia becomes very bad, really bad, not so bad, a little bad, etc. I think the homophobia at camp, wherever it may be, is not violently hateful. people have a fear for things they do not understand and I truly think that many people fear queer people for exactally that reason. they dont understand. I agree with zen about how there are people who are just not into kissing etc with someone of the same gender and that they arnt nessasarily homophobic. forcing them into same sex kissing is just like forcing someone into opposite sex kissing. its wrong. I do believe that there are a lot of people out there who are not into it because they havent tried it. therefor I think they should try it. but then I am falling into my previous comment and how I think its wrong. I think that when people make a big deal out of it (it being homophobia, forced kissing, homophobiaphobia or anything else for that matter) it pushes the situation out of perportion and then its just silly. if someone doesnt want to do something then thats that. they same. "no thanx" or whatever and thats it. anything else calls for attention(on both sides). saying NO! eww! I could NEVER! etc makes me think that they are homophobic and then I start to pester them (now why do I do that?) I think that almost everything in the world needs experimenting and if you close yourself off to the idea your closing yourself off to a valuble experience. somehow I always manage to contradict the things I think when the situation arises and then I wonder where my morals went. I believe that underneith all the stereotypes everyone is bi sexual and that if people could become 'unrepressed' then they could descover that for themselves. I however just posted five minutes ago sating that I didnt want to be bisexual so I have just contradicted myself again. homophobia is a very broad term and to label people under it is just another way to label people. I think that everyone should look at there own shit around queer people and see what they think about it. if your homophobic then you will know and then (if you want to ) you can do something about it. but thats just an idea. ~Laurel I wish I could read this whole page and see what everyone has to say about all this, but right now I'm to mad to. I need to write it out and speek my mind.... I went to my new job today, first day of working there, so I had to get trained by another buser that works there. he started talking to me why we were on break and he said that he was in a club that hates gays and that he beat the shit out of some guy that hit on him, just because he hit on him... I sat there for awhile, not saying anything, just thinking. then we had to go back to work... later on I sat down with him again. I said "if I ever ear/see you beat a gay guy just because he was gay, I will beat you with anything I can find. I don't care if your biger then me or stronger then me, I will find a way some how" that's what I said to him after that, but I got thinking later on once I got home, once I was in my right mind and not all mad. I thought, really would that help anything if I went a beat the shit out of him? would it change his view on gays? I really don't think it would. I think if anything it would make it worse....... my qustion to you people is what can I do to make everything at work better? I'm not gay, but I am bi and I beleave everyone should be able to do whatever they want, when it comes to sexuality ... one thing I know I'm going to do, is talk to my bosses about it, but I'm afraid cuz they seem like they might be againest gays to ..... please tell me your veiws on this cuz it's really eating me up inside..... matt bolenbaugh bi and proud of it..... NBTSWikiWiki | Recent Changes Edited 83 times, last edited on December 17, 2001 by 207.207.243.164. © 2000 NBTSC Webmasters |
